Drying Out (water manipulation)

[bgbdwlf]

I will admit that I did not use the search feature prior to posting this (call it a noob mistake if you will), but that is mainly because I am hoping to see some fresh discussion on this topic.

Natural or not, bodybuilding and even figure competitors nowadays face one all important variable in the last few days leading up to a show. You have to be dry! Nothing can beat that crisp detailed look of someone that dried out perfectly after working through a disciplined diet in prep for a show. Everyone that has competed knows the struggle to dry out all too well. Anyone that has been to a show has seen someone that looks like they should be shredded, but their true build appears to be clouded by a subtle layer of water.

As I approach my third competition, I am trying to review and possibly re-think my position on water manipulation leading into the day of the show. I am hoping to outline my thoughts on it, and possibly picks the brains of many of you as well.

Since it may make a difference, I compete naturally and have been that way my entire life. My general approach to contest prep has always been fairly Spartan in that the more I sacrifice, the better I think I will do. With regard to water I have used a general gorge and cut approach. Starting the Sunday evening before the show, I will drink a half gallon right before bed. I then increase water intake to 3 gallons on Mon and Tues, move to 2 gallons on Wed, 1 to 1.5 gallons on Thurs. I drink 3 cups (24oz) of water on Friday prior to 6pm and then nothing but sips to prevent cramping and wash down supps through the day of the show. At the same time, I load up on added salt on everything through Wed/Thurs morning. As of midday Thurs, I cut all added salt, drink distilled water, etc. It should be noted that on the Monday prior to the show, I begin taking some type of Dandelion root based herbal diuretic to help wash fluids through my system as well.

The long narrative above is a slightly tweaked version of a fairly commonplace approach for water tapering. The only real problem is that the muscles are highly dependent on water for size. Despite a moderate carb deplete followed by a moderate load, I tend to appear less than full (but still very cut) come the day of the show. My fear has always been that ingesting water while introducing any type of carb load will lend itself to spillover and wash away my definition.

I am interested to hear everyone else's opinions, approaches, etc. Lately, I have been hearing more and more people shying away from water manipulation as a whole. I am also interested in how the approach to drying out differs between natural and enhanced competitors.

Sorry for the long read. Thanks for your input in advance.

Derek

[Tim Wescott]

bgbdwlf said:

I will admit that I did not use the search feature prior to posting this (call it a noob mistake if you will), but that is mainly because I am hoping to see some fresh discussion on this topic.

Natural or not, bodybuilding and even figure competitors nowadays face one all important variable in the last few days leading up to a show. You have to be dry! Nothing can beat that crisp detailed look of someone that dried out perfectly after working through a disciplined diet in prep for a show. Everyone that has competed knows the struggle to dry out all too well. Anyone that has been to a show has seen someone that looks like they should be shredded, but their true build appears to be clouded by a subtle layer of water.

As I approach my third competition, I am trying to review and possibly re-think my position on water manipulation leading into the day of the show. I am hoping to outline my thoughts on it, and possibly picks the brains of many of you as well.

Since it may make a difference, I compete naturally and have been that way my entire life. My general approach to contest prep has always been fairly Spartan in that the more I sacrifice, the better I think I will do. With regard to water I have used a general gorge and cut approach. Starting the Sunday evening before the show, I will drink a half gallon right before bed. I then increase water intake to 3 gallons on Mon and Tues, move to 2 gallons on Wed, 1 to 1.5 gallons on Thurs. I drink 3 cups (24oz) of water on Friday prior to 6pm and then nothing but sips to prevent cramping and wash down supps through the day of the show. At the same time, I load up on added salt on everything through Wed/Thurs morning. As of midday Thurs, I cut all added salt, drink distilled water, etc. It should be noted that on the Monday prior to the show, I begin taking some type of Dandelion root based herbal diuretic to help wash fluids through my system as well.

The long narrative above is a slightly tweaked version of a fairly commonplace approach for water tapering. The only real problem is that the muscles are highly dependent on water for size. Despite a moderate carb deplete followed by a moderate load, I tend to appear less than full (but still very cut) come the day of the show. My fear has always been that ingesting water while introducing any type of carb load will lend itself to spillover and wash away my definition.

I am interested to hear everyone else's opinions, approaches, etc. Lately, I have been hearing more and more people shying away from water manipulation as a whole. I am also interested in how the approach to drying out differs between natural and enhanced competitors.

Sorry for the long read. Thanks for your input in advance.

Derek

I typed a huge reply to this post and my PC just froze up.I`ll re-post later,too pissed to do it right now!!!! #smileythrowspc1dn#

[mrbeefy]

First of all...I am looking REALLY forward to seeing Tim's reply to this! ALWAYS GREAT INFO!

My experience:

I always ended up spilling over. Usually cut water too soon, and too many carbs too late.

My last contest was the closest however.
I cut water at noon (should have waited until about 6:00 pm) Friday, for a Saturday show.

The only thing I did differnet this time was I "crap" loaded the night before. I found what normally works for other people doesn't work for me....so I tried this crap loading business.

Friday night = Mcdonalds Hamburger and Large Frioes.
Saturday morning = Pancakes and syrup.

I was full....and sharp!

[Tim Wescott]

bgbdwlf said:

I will admit that I did not use the search feature prior to posting this (call it a noob mistake if you will), but that is mainly because I am hoping to see some fresh discussion on this topic.

Natural or not, bodybuilding and even figure competitors nowadays face one all important variable in the last few days leading up to a show. You have to be dry! Nothing can beat that crisp detailed look of someone that dried out perfectly after working through a disciplined diet in prep for a show. Everyone that has competed knows the struggle to dry out all too well. Anyone that has been to a show has seen someone that looks like they should be shredded, but their true build appears to be clouded by a subtle layer of water.

As I approach my third competition, I am trying to review and possibly re-think my position on water manipulation leading into the day of the show. I am hoping to outline my thoughts on it, and possibly picks the brains of many of you as well.

Since it may make a difference, I compete naturally and have been that way my entire life. My general approach to contest prep has always been fairly Spartan in that the more I sacrifice, the better I think I will do. With regard to water I have used a general gorge and cut approach. Starting the Sunday evening before the show, I will drink a half gallon right before bed. I then increase water intake to 3 gallons on Mon and Tues, move to 2 gallons on Wed, 1 to 1.5 gallons on Thurs. I drink 3 cups (24oz) of water on Friday prior to 6pm and then nothing but sips to prevent cramping and wash down supps through the day of the show. At the same time, I load up on added salt on everything through Wed/Thurs morning. As of midday Thurs, I cut all added salt, drink distilled water, etc. It should be noted that on the Monday prior to the show, I begin taking some type of Dandelion root based herbal diuretic to help wash fluids through my system as well.

The long narrative above is a slightly tweaked version of a fairly commonplace approach for water tapering. The only real problem is that the muscles are highly dependent on water for size. Despite a moderate carb deplete followed by a moderate load, I tend to appear less than full (but still very cut) come the day of the show. My fear has always been that ingesting water while introducing any type of carb load will lend itself to spillover and wash away my definition.

I am interested to hear everyone else's opinions, approaches, etc. Lately, I have been hearing more and more people shying away from water manipulation as a whole. I am also interested in how the approach to drying out differs between natural and enhanced competitors.

Sorry for the long read. Thanks for your input in advance.

Derek

OK,let`s try this again!! ;D

Derek,your plan looks pretty solid.....I don`t normally recommend or beleive in water tapering,but with the amounts you`re drinking,it probably is cool.

I only drink close to 2 gallons a day pre-contest,and find this an extremely hard amount for me to ingest..I drink a ton of coffee also during my prep.

I keep water as high as I can right up until around 9 PM Friday night for a Saturday contest,then stop abruptly......in the AM,I have 2 cups of strong black coffeee,and for the rest of the day,I sip and spit just to keep the mouth moist until after pre-judging.

As far as carbs go,I do not like huge carb loads,I deplete quite a bit,but it is nothing new or shocking to my body as I carb cycle througout the latter part of my prep anyway,then I do a moderate carb load...............I`d rather be a bit flat and shredded,that spill over.

Sodium-I salt my food heavily throughout my prep,then abruptly stop eating any foods that contain sodium 3 days out from the contest,after this I rely on boiled chicken breasts,as my only protein source....carbs are then ,yams,baked potatoes,baby food (sweet potatoes in a jar),unsalted rice cakes......I also eat natty PB as a fat source before I go onstage with possibly a few sips of water...........sodium is still needed and the PB gives me a bit to help shuttle carbs and water to the muscle cells...Resses PB cups are also used at this time,but nothing that would cause bloating or distension.

Diuretics never seem to help me but I`ve only used OTC stuff and that was a long time ago.I may try them again this year.

I do ingest a ton of Vit. C for and caffeine for their diuretic effects.

Quite possibly you should cut water later in the PM on Fri. and cease using sodium at the 3 day out point as oposed to your poresent 2 days out.

Too bad their is no real formula for best results..it`s all hit or miss but these things help me the most.

[Tim Wescott]

Frank,for optimum results if doing a sh*tload type of carb-up,you must be extremelylean for it to be effective,............I`m talking shrinkwrapped lean here!!

This year,you WILL be shrinkwrapped my friend!!

[bgbdwlf]

I've always been fearful of the crap loading approach. I may have to dry run the approach to see how my body reacts, the only difficulty in that is the level of leanness needed. If I take a dry run at the final approach - say 3 weeks out - I will not be as hard as I would for the final week - so my test run will be limited in the feedback that I can obtain from it.

That being said, sometimes unorthodox approaches work wonders. One of my favorite sayings is "Fortune favors the bold!" Maybe I'll have to try the crap loading.

[masterschamp]

Derek,
I cut my water this way:
Up to the show I drink 1-1.5 gallon per day, nothing that I don't usually do...I do not believe in taking in tons of water to set up your water reduction stage. Wed...1 gallon, Thur...1/2 gallon, Fri.......1/4 gallon till 6 pm, then only sips after I have used restroom. Morning of the show:
2 rice cakes/jam/4 oz beef/1whole egg/sips of water to wash down the food and that's it! as far as carbing, I diet on EXTREMELY low carbs for weeks leading into the show, so I don't need an elaborate carb load to have a significant effect.....I just take in a "dry" carb (potato,sweet potato) every 3 hours beginning Thursday morning with 3-4 oz lean beef up until Saturday morning. Right before pumping I eat 3 hershey's kisses!! Never had a problem coming in full, hard and dry!

Keith

[bgbdwlf]

Tim -

Thanks for the affirmation. I actually first learned of my final week's approach for water from Steve Holland - and he was always in great shape when competing. I have had success in past shows, but I have this nagging thought in my mind that maybe things have changed slightly, or there is a better way.

I also share the favoritism for slightly under carbed verus risking spillover. The fear is obviously, once you carb too much - your done, that's it - its over for that show.

I think for this next show I will be keeping my water higher for longer and then cutting late in the day on Friday. Sodium cut Thursday morning.

I will say that even just talking through this has me just incredibly amped up to compete. I definitely savor the journey as much if not more than the end goal achievement, but right now I can't wait to hit the stage for mandatory comparisons.

Thanks again for the input.

Derek

[bgbdwlf]

Keith -

I appreciate the input man. I too diet on what many would consider extremely low carbs for a significant portion of my contest diet.

With regard to increasing water intake to set up the last minute cut, I tried it with moderate intake at my first show and did not see as pronounce effect in "tightening" or "drying out". I may not go as high as 3 gallons , but I will probably hit 2.5.

Appreciate the various perspectives on this. I am like a sponge right now. Keep em coming.

[mrbeefy]

Like Tim said, a lot of this is hit and miss. And what may have worked before, like you alluded to, may not work the same again.

One show I felt desicated.
Another I spilled over.

Once I was really close, and someone advised me (pro no less), to pop 3 twinkies 30-15 miuntes before I hit the stage.

I was vascular in the morning...when I hit the twinkies, it was like someone erased every vain in my body. I fired that trainer the next day. I took a 5th in that show, but wonder what would have happend without the twinkies.

TIM = SO....I look forward to being SHRINKWRAPPED!

Let's git er done!!!

[RUBICON19]

Last year I cut water to low on show day. Caused cramping. This year i will keep a bit in .5 - .75 of a gallon.. I will start with 2-3 gallons at the beggining of the week and tapper from there

[Intensity]

Hi

Here is a very good thread on the subject + an interesting article! Good luck!

timwescott.proboards18.com/index.cgi?board=diet&action=display&thread=1121287626&page=1

One of the hormones that is responsible for water retention is Aldosterone

Aldosterone is secreted at the end of a hormonal cascade activated primarily by the decreased quantity of sodium that reaches the "Distal Tubule" of the kidney. There are also other factors that contribute to the activation of this cascade but the sodium level is the most important. Sympathetic stimulation (acting via B1- adrenoceptors), renal artery hypotension, and low concentration of sodium (in our case) in the distal tubule of the kidney causes the production of Renin.

Renin is an enzyme that acts upon a circulating substrate, Angiotensinogen, that undergoes proteolytic cleavage to form the decapeptide Angiotensin I. The endothelium in the lungs has a particular enzyme called Angiotensin Converting Enzyme (ACE) that cleaves off 2 amino acids to form the octapeptide Angiotensinogen II (AII) which in turn stimulates the adrenal cortex to secrete Aldosterone.

Aldosterone is a steroid hormone that belongs to the category of Mineralocorticoids produced by the adrenal cortex. As the name suggests, mineralocorticoids regulate the mineral salts, sodium and potassium in the body's extracellular fluid spaces. Although there are three mineralocorticoids, Aldosterone is the most important physiologically and comprises almost 95% of all mineralocorticoids.

Aldosterone acts by regulating sodium re-absorption in the distal tubules of the kidneys. When large quantities of Aldosterone are secreted the sodium ions that enter the kidney filtrate are reabsorbed back along with increased fluid. Consequently, little sodium passes into the urine. This sodium re-absorption therefore promotes the re-absorption of water due to osmosis.
This explains why water retention occurs when very low levels of sodium are introduced through the diet.


Starting from Sunday up to and including Wednesday increase your sodium intake either by eating rich sodium foods (like egg whites, tuna for the protein sources) and adding salt to your meals. Stop doing this and drastically abolish as much as possible sodium from your diet starting on Thursday by switching your rich-sodium food to low-sodium foods (for example: switch tuna and egg whites with chicken breast, turkey breast or other source of high biological value protein that are low in sodium. Of course, your carbohydrates sources should also be very low in sodium).

When the sodium intake gets abolished 2 days prior to the show, the system will keep on excreting it as well as the water. Remember Homeostasis? In this case, when the sodium has been overloaded in the previous days, the system is focused on re-establishing homeostasis, that is to resume back to normal levels of sodium and it does this by continuing to excrete sodium and consequently water at a very fast rate. You did a drastic overload of it and the body drastically replies. This condition is maintained until the system detects through its feedback mechanism that sodium normal levels have been resumed back.

When sodium is not consumed anymore, the system usually takes about 2 to 2 1/2 days to recognize the diminished sodium intake and therefore within this amount of time the excess of sodium and water excretion won't lead to any negative feedback mechanism.

That's why timing the lowering of sodium is crucial.

[bgbdwlf]

Great Info. Thanks for posting it up.

[Tim Wescott]

Best thread we`ve had here in a long time!!

Thanks for the input guys!!

[bgbdwlf]

It is definitely a complex issue because there are so many factors. We start by addressing water manipulation but there are so many other requisite considerations: sodium load/deplete, sodium/potassium balance, carb load/deplete, etc.

I'm not sure it is possible to isolate the discussion to water alone. I probably should have made the title of this thread "Final Show Prep" or something more accurate. At any rate, I'm getting some new info here and, in some ways, a reinforcement of things I already believed.

Thanks again to everyone for taking the time to contribute.

[Sal Paradise]

I used an approach similar to Tim.
I keep the water as high as possible and then stop it completely. I don't even have the coffee becasue I can't stand it but a couple of caffine pills do help.
when it comes to water and drying out I don't think there is much of a diff. between completely clean competitors and those who are 'enhanced'. The same factors come into play. Although a person who is willing to use other supps would likely take a stronger diuretic to help a lot more.
Although this can backfire big time and I'm not just talking safety here, it can really mess up your look too, though safety is the most important aspect.

I also know peopl who do a taper with their water and if it works for them great. I tried it and it didn't do jack squat for me. I actually held water. As I recuded it over a few days I noticed I was getting smoother becasue my body simply didn't expel as much. It didn't need to because there was not huge excess so i simply held it.
Bottom line is it didn't work for me and I will continue to use the drastic water drop.

The sodium is another thing though -
While I do sodium load and then cut it, I have heard cranking up the sodium before stepping on stage helps a bit with pulling some water away form the skin and can increase vascularity.
I don't know if anyone has tried this but it is an interesting thought.

Unfortunately the real fact of the matter to all of this is a person needs to find out what works best for them.
This is usually done through trial and error. Most starting with the most common or popular method and then chaging it up as needed. It just sucks if you put all that work in and find out the method of chioce is not what works well with your body.

Hence another plus to doing more than one show per year.

I found out just a few hours too late that doing a crap load would have worked well for me. I was somewhat lean and i did the typical carb load - not a huge load but using carbs as the main ingredient. Well after the show and still being in contest condition a large pizza went down the hatch. Well two hours later and it was like night and day diff. The skin pulled in even tighter, veins were jumping everywhere including the middle of my back and the seperation I had earlier was even more pronounced.

However, even knowing this I will still be hesitant to use a crap load for my show - it's just hard to reset the thinking that has been engrained into me of "CARB LOAD - CARB LOAD - CARB LOAD!!!" Even when i know the carb load has not had spectacular resuls any time I've used it.

The pics I have in the photo section (some time back) were of good condition but honestly that condition was there with or without the carb load and it just improved once I ate more fats and salts afterward.

[mrky03]

I do the same thing after every show and I always swear that I'm going to eat a pizza before I go on stage but I never do! Its like you said we get into this mindset.

[Intensity]

There is a lot of great inputs here, thanks for the contribution everyone!

Without getting into details, here is what I tipically do before a show:

During the last 10 days, my water intake increases from 1,5 gallons to 2,0... 2,5 and 3,0 gallons a day until Friday night... and you know what? On contest day, Saturday, I only reduce the water intake around 1 gallon :-O yep! I've seen a looooot more flat guys than spilled over guys… that's why I first tryed this approach! By doing this (and manipulating sodium and potassium), it helps me being full while reducing the risk of cramping and retaining water. Unconventionnal, I know… but it worths trying it a couple of week before a contest and make your own opinion about it...

[bgbdwlf]

I'm curious as to how you manipulate the triggers associated to the relatively high water intake on the day of the show. I'm not crying blasphemy here, just trying to learn.

If water remains high, but sodium is dropped, carbs are kept slightly increased from mid-week until the stage (but still moderate) and potassium is kept moderate?

That would be my guess, but I'm hoping you can confirm.

Thanks for the input.

[Intensity]

Derek, what I can tell you is that the best diuritic is water The more you drink, the more your body will eleminate it! In fact, your body always tries to equilibrate everything so if you want to make sure your body wont keep water under the skin… just dont give it a reason to do so… and Over hydrating is the solution! So on contest day, just a small reduction of water intake (if 2 gallons is what we can call a "small reduction") will be enough for you to flush the excess of water… and still drink enough (1 gallon) to keep your muscles full and round. I know there is no "one perfect way" to do a contest prep, but this is what worked best for me… and for 75% of the athletes I fallowed! So yes by not drinking at all I could have been 2-3% drier... but not with the same fulness and pump!

I'm an extremist so can you believe that I drank 11 liters (2,5 gallons??) on this contest day in 2005?


And 6 liters (1,5 gallons??) on this contest day in 2006?


"If water remains high, but sodium is dropped, carbs are kept slightly increased from mid-week until the stage (but still moderate) and potassium is kept moderate? " You are right… but again, there is a lot of individual factors involved with sodium and potassium… I even tried some contest prep with high sodium (but not with the same amout of water as usual) and had some great results with it!

Mo