Post by cuts280 on Mar 16, 2007 2:36:33 GMT -5
www.EliteFTS.com.
I found this quite informative plus quite a few people on this board hold some interest in powerlifting so here goes:
James Smith: Elite level lifters who pull sumo, what have you found to be the most effective means of increasing your pulling strength off the floor? My technique is solid so I’m looking for insights on any special exercises that have yielded you significant results in the low end/off the floor strength component.
Dave Tate: The best thing I’ve found is getting stronger. This sounds very simple but has worked for so many lifters. What I mean by this is that you have to increase your overall body strength. This would be quads, hamstrings, low back, abs, etc. This is really basic stuff, but something that many people forget.
The start depends on position. If your hips are off, they move too far back and you lose your force. If you can film the pull, let me see it. I have to see what’s going on to make any type of assessment.
J.L. Holdsworth: I used to suck at these, but then I started pulling my sumo deadlifts off of mats and it seemed to make a big difference. You can try three inches or so (three mats). You can also get a similar training effect by using 35-lb plates on the bar rather than 45-lb plates. The 35-lb plates are obviously smaller and will require a larger ROM. Or you can just put on more equipment like Dave does.
Dave Tate: I don’t even take that as an insult.
J.L. Holdsworth: It’s not. I admire that in you.
James Smith: JL, thanks brother. I actually tried pulling sumo off of elevated surfaces. I just didn’t keep it around long enough to experience any significant training effect. My dumb ass fault. I think I’ll perform a cycle of those for my next training block.
That’s also my logic for increasing pulling strength off the floor—increasing the ROM. I just didn’t know if maybe I had overlooked or was unaware of another means of strengthening the bottom end such as using a cambered bar bench press. For strengthening the low end press, I’ve also thought of performing low wide stance squats (although these are hell on the hips) and perhaps even a repetition version of partial deadlifts such as dumbbell presses and suspended push-ups.
Jim Wendler: I agree with Dave on this one. Sometimes we’re too busy looking for the magical exercise rather than doing the ones that we know work—and doing them hard and with purpose. My deadlift went up simply because I quit screwing around with light weights on my assistance work and did movements and weights that were challenging and had a great carryover. Remember, there’s a difference between training with exercises to get stronger and training to rehab a muscle group. I think these lines get crossed too much.
I’ve also found that sumo deadlifting is more technique than conventional pulling. You have little room for error when pulling sumo. A conventional deadlift is more of a grunt, caveman lift. So if your technique is even slightly off, an easy pull can turn into a max effort. Unfortunately, most people think they’re going to be great sumo pullers when they do their speed deadlift work. This is because it’s easy. Its only when you start pulling around 85 percent does the form start really making a big difference.
J.L. Holdsworth: Never forget that the special exercises are for refining problems. Nothing fixes getting a sumo dead off the floor like getting stronger hips and legs (if you’re in the right position). All of your basic accessories are still the best ways to increase the deadlift. I think so many times we get caught up in being so smart about training we forget that grabbing a heavy ass deadlift and pulling is a great way to get stronger. Even the simple things like shooting hoops helps with basic conditioning and muscle coordination. The bottom line is that you shouldn’t leave your glute hams, reverse hypers, and other basic accessories for the magic bullet exercise.
Jim Wendler: Isn’t that what I just said?
J.L. Holdsworth: Sort of but different.
Jim Wendler: And when did you start shooting hoops?
J.L. Holdsworth: When you started losing weight.
Jim Wendler: Touché.
James Smith: JL, good stuff. I appreciate your comment regarding the role of special exercises.
I really need to make the trip to see you guys at WSB/EFS. All this time I’ve developed my technique by studying videos and illustrations. I was fortunate to have lifted with some very strong elite lifters when I was in San Diego, but for the last year, I’ve trained alone. The good thing is I’ve gotten stronger. The bad thing is I have no one to watch my form. I video stuff but as you guys know it’s not even close to having an elite or stronger lifter coach your ass.
Mark Bell: Anderson squats may help as well as suspended good mornings.
James Smith: Mark, I don’t know how to perform an Anderson squat. I assume this is a lift that Paul Anderson conceived. Can you describe it?
Mark Bell: The Anderson squat is a suspended squat from chains or pins.
Brian Schwab: I pull sumo and there are a couple of exercises that have really helped me. First, is training my abs. These exercises made my mid-section extremely strong:
* sit-ups with a plate behind your head
* spread eagle sit-ups
* medicine ball throws
* incline sits-ups
* hanging leg raises
* pull-down abs
* sit-ups on the glute ham raise
For your hips, I think people need to try these exercises:
1. Band abduction and adduction: Try not to make this more complicated than it is. To do this, there are several ways you can rig the bands up with a power rack, bench, or jump strength platform. Just pick one for each muscle group and do a couple sets for each.
2. Light sumo pulls standing on blocks: This is done exactly as it sounds. Keep the weight light and work on keeping a tight arch and working the range of motion.
3. Pull thrus with a wide stance: This is great for the hip drive needed to finish the sumo deadlift.
4. Duck under: This is a great flexibility/mobility movement. Set a power bar up in the power rack so that it’s chest level. Stand off to the side and squat down, side step, and duck under the bar while keeping the chest up. This is great for hip mobility. As you get better, lower the bar.
James Smith: Thanks, Brian. I’m going to have to try some of those exercises.
Jim Wendler: You can do something other than train heavy?
J.L. Holdsworth: I can see the light bulb flickering over your head.
Tim Harold: d**n it! I saw this thread, and my eyes lit up. I expected to see three pages full of insightful discussion about pulling sumo. Instead, I get Mark and James fondling each other’s balls with single ply bench shirts.
Why is Dave the only one who said anything about form? Special exercises are great, but you can throw that in the water if your technique isn’t up to par and you’re unable to use the strength you’ve worked so hard to develop. If your form is off because of a weakness somewhere in your body, that’s another story. Make sure your form is correct before you start trying all these cool exercises. Otherwise, you’ll end up with a great good morning but your deadlift will still suck because you can’t do it right. Once your form is correct, then we can talk about exercises to make you strong and raise your deadlift.
What is good form? Well, I don’t necessarily think that I have the best sumo form in the world. However, I don’t think there are too many people who can rip big weights off the floor with the speed that I do. How do I do that? Before every deadlift attempt, I have Joe Bayles and Bob Coe shove a grenade up my ass. It’s simple. I see all these people who want to ease a sumo deadlift off the floor because somewhere along the timeline of weightlifting some f**king jerkoff said that sumo is hard off the floor and easy at lockout. Also, they said that conventional is the opposite—easy off the floor and hard at lockout. BULL f**kING sh*t! Maybe that’s why there are only a few people who have pulled 900 lbs with the sumo style. I’m really rambling but hopefully you’ll learn something to take to the gym with you. The deadlift, whether you’re pulling sumo or conventional, is about attitude. Every time you pull a deadlift, snap it off the ground! But to do that, you have to have perfect form. When I pull, this is what I do:
1. I set my feet. ALWAYS have your toes pointed outwards, never straight on the sumo deadlift. You can’t get your knees out wide enough to get your hips as close to the bar as possible if they’re pointed straight ahead. Imagine that your legs come straight out of your side and they can’t go forward at all. That’s what you want to do at the start of the pull right before you break the ground. You have to get your hips as involved as you can right from the get go.
2. Take a breath into your gut. Flail your arms if you do that f*g**t sh*t and whatever other tai chi-like dance moves some people do before they grab the bar.
3. Bend over and grab the bar semi straight legged. Don’t squat down. If you do, you’ll defeat the purpose of why I pull this way. While you’re grabbing the bar, start tightening up your lats, erectors, etc.
4. This is the secret right here. Take another very quick breath into your belly if you can and then sit back and SNAP. Push your knees and feet out as hard as you can while sitting back and pushing your hips to the bar, staying back only on your heels.
If you do this right and in one seamless motion, which will take time, the weights will jump off the floor. You should wear gear for this for sure. I’m kind of weird, but I like the Metal deadlifter for this and maybe a thin pair of briefs underneath. You need tons of tightness on your hips. Because of the way the Metal deadlifter is cut with the straps and that groin sh*t, it will help push your hips forward, and if you’re lucky, castrate you.
I’m going to post more if you guys want to ask questions. This just popped into my head, but I have to run. I have a date with a girl who has TMJ. I think she might come down with a serious case of lockjaw by the morning.
I forgot one tidbit about why I pull that way...
The bending over and then sitting back is kind of like levering yourself off the floor. It reminds me of school when we learned about fulcrums. I don’t remember what that means but just go with it. When you have your belly full of air and you’re leaning and sitting back, a tremendous amount of force against the bar is created before you snap off the ground if you’re wearing enough gear and if you’ve even started to use your strength yet. If you can get the timing down by practicing with moderate to heavy weights (never light weights because I don’t believe in light weights for mastering form), then you’re well on your way to learning how to have a much bigger sumo deadlift.
I found this quite informative plus quite a few people on this board hold some interest in powerlifting so here goes:
James Smith: Elite level lifters who pull sumo, what have you found to be the most effective means of increasing your pulling strength off the floor? My technique is solid so I’m looking for insights on any special exercises that have yielded you significant results in the low end/off the floor strength component.
Dave Tate: The best thing I’ve found is getting stronger. This sounds very simple but has worked for so many lifters. What I mean by this is that you have to increase your overall body strength. This would be quads, hamstrings, low back, abs, etc. This is really basic stuff, but something that many people forget.
The start depends on position. If your hips are off, they move too far back and you lose your force. If you can film the pull, let me see it. I have to see what’s going on to make any type of assessment.
J.L. Holdsworth: I used to suck at these, but then I started pulling my sumo deadlifts off of mats and it seemed to make a big difference. You can try three inches or so (three mats). You can also get a similar training effect by using 35-lb plates on the bar rather than 45-lb plates. The 35-lb plates are obviously smaller and will require a larger ROM. Or you can just put on more equipment like Dave does.
Dave Tate: I don’t even take that as an insult.
J.L. Holdsworth: It’s not. I admire that in you.
James Smith: JL, thanks brother. I actually tried pulling sumo off of elevated surfaces. I just didn’t keep it around long enough to experience any significant training effect. My dumb ass fault. I think I’ll perform a cycle of those for my next training block.
That’s also my logic for increasing pulling strength off the floor—increasing the ROM. I just didn’t know if maybe I had overlooked or was unaware of another means of strengthening the bottom end such as using a cambered bar bench press. For strengthening the low end press, I’ve also thought of performing low wide stance squats (although these are hell on the hips) and perhaps even a repetition version of partial deadlifts such as dumbbell presses and suspended push-ups.
Jim Wendler: I agree with Dave on this one. Sometimes we’re too busy looking for the magical exercise rather than doing the ones that we know work—and doing them hard and with purpose. My deadlift went up simply because I quit screwing around with light weights on my assistance work and did movements and weights that were challenging and had a great carryover. Remember, there’s a difference between training with exercises to get stronger and training to rehab a muscle group. I think these lines get crossed too much.
I’ve also found that sumo deadlifting is more technique than conventional pulling. You have little room for error when pulling sumo. A conventional deadlift is more of a grunt, caveman lift. So if your technique is even slightly off, an easy pull can turn into a max effort. Unfortunately, most people think they’re going to be great sumo pullers when they do their speed deadlift work. This is because it’s easy. Its only when you start pulling around 85 percent does the form start really making a big difference.
J.L. Holdsworth: Never forget that the special exercises are for refining problems. Nothing fixes getting a sumo dead off the floor like getting stronger hips and legs (if you’re in the right position). All of your basic accessories are still the best ways to increase the deadlift. I think so many times we get caught up in being so smart about training we forget that grabbing a heavy ass deadlift and pulling is a great way to get stronger. Even the simple things like shooting hoops helps with basic conditioning and muscle coordination. The bottom line is that you shouldn’t leave your glute hams, reverse hypers, and other basic accessories for the magic bullet exercise.
Jim Wendler: Isn’t that what I just said?
J.L. Holdsworth: Sort of but different.
Jim Wendler: And when did you start shooting hoops?
J.L. Holdsworth: When you started losing weight.
Jim Wendler: Touché.
James Smith: JL, good stuff. I appreciate your comment regarding the role of special exercises.
I really need to make the trip to see you guys at WSB/EFS. All this time I’ve developed my technique by studying videos and illustrations. I was fortunate to have lifted with some very strong elite lifters when I was in San Diego, but for the last year, I’ve trained alone. The good thing is I’ve gotten stronger. The bad thing is I have no one to watch my form. I video stuff but as you guys know it’s not even close to having an elite or stronger lifter coach your ass.
Mark Bell: Anderson squats may help as well as suspended good mornings.
James Smith: Mark, I don’t know how to perform an Anderson squat. I assume this is a lift that Paul Anderson conceived. Can you describe it?
Mark Bell: The Anderson squat is a suspended squat from chains or pins.
Brian Schwab: I pull sumo and there are a couple of exercises that have really helped me. First, is training my abs. These exercises made my mid-section extremely strong:
* sit-ups with a plate behind your head
* spread eagle sit-ups
* medicine ball throws
* incline sits-ups
* hanging leg raises
* pull-down abs
* sit-ups on the glute ham raise
For your hips, I think people need to try these exercises:
1. Band abduction and adduction: Try not to make this more complicated than it is. To do this, there are several ways you can rig the bands up with a power rack, bench, or jump strength platform. Just pick one for each muscle group and do a couple sets for each.
2. Light sumo pulls standing on blocks: This is done exactly as it sounds. Keep the weight light and work on keeping a tight arch and working the range of motion.
3. Pull thrus with a wide stance: This is great for the hip drive needed to finish the sumo deadlift.
4. Duck under: This is a great flexibility/mobility movement. Set a power bar up in the power rack so that it’s chest level. Stand off to the side and squat down, side step, and duck under the bar while keeping the chest up. This is great for hip mobility. As you get better, lower the bar.
James Smith: Thanks, Brian. I’m going to have to try some of those exercises.
Jim Wendler: You can do something other than train heavy?
J.L. Holdsworth: I can see the light bulb flickering over your head.
Tim Harold: d**n it! I saw this thread, and my eyes lit up. I expected to see three pages full of insightful discussion about pulling sumo. Instead, I get Mark and James fondling each other’s balls with single ply bench shirts.
Why is Dave the only one who said anything about form? Special exercises are great, but you can throw that in the water if your technique isn’t up to par and you’re unable to use the strength you’ve worked so hard to develop. If your form is off because of a weakness somewhere in your body, that’s another story. Make sure your form is correct before you start trying all these cool exercises. Otherwise, you’ll end up with a great good morning but your deadlift will still suck because you can’t do it right. Once your form is correct, then we can talk about exercises to make you strong and raise your deadlift.
What is good form? Well, I don’t necessarily think that I have the best sumo form in the world. However, I don’t think there are too many people who can rip big weights off the floor with the speed that I do. How do I do that? Before every deadlift attempt, I have Joe Bayles and Bob Coe shove a grenade up my ass. It’s simple. I see all these people who want to ease a sumo deadlift off the floor because somewhere along the timeline of weightlifting some f**king jerkoff said that sumo is hard off the floor and easy at lockout. Also, they said that conventional is the opposite—easy off the floor and hard at lockout. BULL f**kING sh*t! Maybe that’s why there are only a few people who have pulled 900 lbs with the sumo style. I’m really rambling but hopefully you’ll learn something to take to the gym with you. The deadlift, whether you’re pulling sumo or conventional, is about attitude. Every time you pull a deadlift, snap it off the ground! But to do that, you have to have perfect form. When I pull, this is what I do:
1. I set my feet. ALWAYS have your toes pointed outwards, never straight on the sumo deadlift. You can’t get your knees out wide enough to get your hips as close to the bar as possible if they’re pointed straight ahead. Imagine that your legs come straight out of your side and they can’t go forward at all. That’s what you want to do at the start of the pull right before you break the ground. You have to get your hips as involved as you can right from the get go.
2. Take a breath into your gut. Flail your arms if you do that f*g**t sh*t and whatever other tai chi-like dance moves some people do before they grab the bar.
3. Bend over and grab the bar semi straight legged. Don’t squat down. If you do, you’ll defeat the purpose of why I pull this way. While you’re grabbing the bar, start tightening up your lats, erectors, etc.
4. This is the secret right here. Take another very quick breath into your belly if you can and then sit back and SNAP. Push your knees and feet out as hard as you can while sitting back and pushing your hips to the bar, staying back only on your heels.
If you do this right and in one seamless motion, which will take time, the weights will jump off the floor. You should wear gear for this for sure. I’m kind of weird, but I like the Metal deadlifter for this and maybe a thin pair of briefs underneath. You need tons of tightness on your hips. Because of the way the Metal deadlifter is cut with the straps and that groin sh*t, it will help push your hips forward, and if you’re lucky, castrate you.
I’m going to post more if you guys want to ask questions. This just popped into my head, but I have to run. I have a date with a girl who has TMJ. I think she might come down with a serious case of lockjaw by the morning.
I forgot one tidbit about why I pull that way...
The bending over and then sitting back is kind of like levering yourself off the floor. It reminds me of school when we learned about fulcrums. I don’t remember what that means but just go with it. When you have your belly full of air and you’re leaning and sitting back, a tremendous amount of force against the bar is created before you snap off the ground if you’re wearing enough gear and if you’ve even started to use your strength yet. If you can get the timing down by practicing with moderate to heavy weights (never light weights because I don’t believe in light weights for mastering form), then you’re well on your way to learning how to have a much bigger sumo deadlift.
i miss them
