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Post by Maximum6 on Jun 23, 2009 6:42:15 GMT -5
www.bodybuilding.com/fun/matt55.htmOkay i read a couple articles and have some understanding. My question is, In this article i posted above, it states that fat burning is stopped, and fat storage is activated when you try to force feed your muscles with glucose. (I'm assuming this means your glycogen stores are full in both muscle/liver). This makes sense to me, when glycogen stores are full, it dips over into fat storage. Now, What about if you eat a High GI food alone, and your body's glycogen stores are not full? How does the body react to it? I'm thinking the body takes it in and stores it in the muslces/liver "quickly", which leaves the body empty of blood glucose, and low energy + imitation of starvation. [glow=red,2,300]Because of low energy + feeling hungry again, the body thinks its starving, which would lead to fat storage mode? Can someone correct me on this?[/glow] Along with fat storage, the article in the link states that the body will need energy because of "starvation". Unless you start feeding the body, the bodyitself will take PROTEIN FROM MUSCLES as a way to start feeding the body itself. "Normally the body would compensate for this by tapping some stored fat, BUT? The ever-helpful Mr.Insulin made sure to turn that switch off, so what does the body have left? Protein. More specifically - MUSCLE protein" Reason for dipping into muscles instead of stored glycogen: "Muscle protein can be used as emergency fuel, especially - remember this? - in a situation where the body perceives itself as starving. Then it wants to get rid of tissue that burns calories 24/7, which leaves us with muscle, being most "un-economical" from a calorie-perspective" This also leads me to my next question that I have never bothered to learn. [glow=red,2,300]When does the body use BODY FAT as a fuel source?[/glow]
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Post by youngblood on Jun 23, 2009 11:00:02 GMT -5
I think there are A LOT of articles out there, that do nothing but confuse the neophyte lifters. The young guys are naive, want to get big, or cut, or what have you...but since they're just starting out or really don't know too much of what they are doing, their naivete gets in the way and hinders their progress more than the articles help them. I'm not really going to answer your questions directly, but I'll give my view points on the subject, in a few different ways and/or analogies. 1) Think of your glycogen levels as a gas tank in a car. If you have enough gas (glycogen) in the tank, what happens when you put more gas in? You spill gas all over the side of your car and ruin your paint job. Well, that paint job in this case is your abs! 2) Discard the GI index, almost entirely. The only time(s) in which I would even pay attention to the GI is a) when your diabetic and b) immediately following a workout. So, if you're doing the latter, your glycogen levels will be fairly low if even existent. Then the body will replenish it's energy stores and you won't have to worry about fat gain from excess carbs/calories. 3) Insulin's first job is to store things, mainly fat. If you have carbs in a meal the insulin within your body raises, and shuts down fat burning entirely. It's not until your body's 'slin levels go back to "flat line" that you can burn fat again. Dr. Greg Ellis in his book "Ultimate Diet Secrets" explains that 'when insulin is present, the body does not burn fat. Insulin (and also Lipoprotein Lipayse...LPL for short) acts as a "gate keeper" in which the the energy is directed to either the muscle OR fat cell. If you ingest carbs, the LPL directs the carbs into the FAT CELL and with insulin present, you have now just stored more fat, while leaving your muscle cells craving for energy. So you try and grab that bag of potato chips thinking it's more energy, yet you replicate this exact same scenario and store MORE FAT." If you eat a smaller amount of carbs, you'll minimize fat storage, and emphasize replenishing levels within the muscle/brain etc...and not worry about having the "dunlop syndrome." 3) Max, I will argue this point (and have with NUMEROUS people in my gym/life/etc...) with people, but ask yourself a few questions and then ask yourself what your logic tells you: Questions- 1) What does the term "essential" mean in regards to human nutrition? 2) How many essential amino acids are there? 3) How many essential fatty acids are there? 4) How many essential carbohydrates are? Within those four questions, I think you'll pretty much be able to have any nutrition question answered, IMO. Now, there are exceptions, rather than those questions being the RULE for any and everyone. Ya gotta keep that in mind too.  |
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Post by Maximum6 on Jun 25, 2009 14:35:07 GMT -5
I will reply to you properly later on....
I'm currently preoccupied with studying for summer school chemistry ;D
but I did have somethings i wanted to ask in response to what you posted.
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Post by Maximum6 on Jun 30, 2009 2:37:15 GMT -5
Okay, first question.
"If you ingest carbs, the LPL directs the carbs into the FAT CELL and with insulin present, you have now just stored more fat, while leaving your muscle cells craving for energy."
[glow=red,2,300]why are the muscle craving energy if you've ingested carbohydrates?
Shouldn't the carbohydrates be first sent to glycogen stores of muscles/liver. Then when it is over filled, it will dip into the Fat Stores?[/glow]
Questions-
1) What does the term "essential" mean in regards to human nutrition? Essential could mean what is absolute necessary to maintain proper body function or to simply maintain life. Usually the term essential is used for nutrients the body itself cannot produce.
2) How many essential amino acids are there? there are 8 essential amino acids. But technically all amino acids are essential. Without complete protein no muscles.
3) How many essential fatty acids are there? no idea
4) How many essential carbohydrates are? Glucose, the body's source of ATP production and fuel for cells
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Post by youngblood on Jun 30, 2009 16:53:18 GMT -5
why are the muscle craving energy if you've ingested carbohydrates? Umm, I'll be a hard ass here, and tell you to read again. Why is the muscle craving energy? Like I JUST SAID, because the LPL directed the energy to the FAT cell, and leaves the reason your feeling hungry (muscle cell needing energy...fat is metabolically inert; it's there for storage and nothing else. Fat does not need any calories to maintain, or grow larger etc...) still feeling hungry because the energy went elsewhere. I've never been good at answering these types of questions. But I feel you are correct, depending on the situation. Since we're speaking of post-workout, yes I would believe it's to fill the liver and such. Other times, depends on how low the levels in the liver are. Layne Norton is your man on this question! All of your answers above are correct. More importantly, the latter of saying "essential nutrients the body CANNOT PRODUCE ITSELF." Your body MUST ingest these items from OUTSIDE itself. There are 8, you again are correct. There are 2 more that are "conditionally" essential, which we can produce from other AA's, but cannot get them in the amounts needed (glutamine is one of these, but there is a whole other thread dedicated to that!). Two, Omega 3 & 6's. I believe there may be an Omega 9 as well, but I am not 100% sure, nor whether it's essential. WRONG!!!! There are ZERO essential carbohydrates. You do NOT need carbs to provide energy. Your body can produce them from other sources. Fats, protein, you can use ketosis....etc. It is not essential in any way shape or form for you to ingest carbs from exogenous (outside) sources!!!! |
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Post by Maximum6 on Jul 2, 2009 18:47:51 GMT -5
I understand that insulin either stores fat, or brings nutrients into the cells.
[glow=red,2,300]Is LPL always present along as long as you ingest carbohydrates?[/glow]
[glow=red,2,300]What causes LPL to DIRECT carbs to fat cells?[/glow] you might of answered this already, but it was not specific enough for me to understand.
Meaning, the muscles are depleted, naturally whatever carbs you eat should be sucked up by the "craving muscles". But in the post you mention, "[glow=red,2,300]If you ingest carbs[/glow], the LPL directs the carbs into the FAT CELL and with insulin present,"
Then later you further explained "If you eat a smaller amount of carbs, you'll minimize fat storage, and emphasize replenishing levels within the muscle/brain ".
I understand already, that too much of any nutrient would inevitably lead to fat storage.
And I also i understand that Postworkout, there is a Magical window of opportunity.
My questions are referring to when the body is not filled with glycogen in the muscles/liver, but ingests Fast Acting carbs versus Slow Acting carbs.
Example would be....50g oatmeal vs 50g sugar
Same level of carbohydrates, but eating the sugar will result in a HIGHER level of INSULIN release compared to eating 50g oatmeal.
The body is not fully filled with glycogen in the muscle or liver.
body composition wise, I would believe it is possible to store fat, even when it is in a "calorie deficit" situation. Meaning the body can actually gain FAT weight while losing OVERALL bodyweight.
It makes sense, because the body thinks its starving. Therefore, in order for a bodybuilder to lose fat in a calorie deficit situation, he would have to manipulate INSULIN, which was said to be the one responsible for turning off FAT BURNING, and also causing FAT STORAGE.
p.s Chemistry class is over, so my brain is on overdrive
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Post by mrbeefy on Jul 2, 2009 20:18:32 GMT -5
Max Wrote: "This also leads me to my next question that I have never bothered to learn.
When does the body use BODY FAT as a fuel source?"
See "The Ketogenic Diet" by Lyle McDonald""
Will tell you all you want to know about how the body uses fat as fuel.
Frank
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Post by RUBICON19 on Jul 6, 2009 14:54:45 GMT -5
Im with YB... My body runs VERY VERY well on EFAs and all other fats. Carbs are OUT for me, minus a cheat or carb up meal.
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