Medial delts??

[Lux]

I'm really struggling to feel it when i try to target my medial delts with db side late raises. Not sure if i'm struggling to get the form nailed or if i should stop wasting my time and stick to heavy presses?

I have used wide grip upright row in the past, tempted to give these a run again. Or theres a nautilus lat raise machine in my gym, are these any good?

Any hints, tips or advice greatly appreciated guys

[RUBICON19]

IMO presses will always be numero uno.. DB side lats are not my favorite exercise, but I do a couple sets of them. I do them in a non convential way though. If you are trying to feel them, then lift with your delt, not your arms. When the bells reach the top twist your thumb end down slightly as if pouring a glass of water.

[Intensity]

I strongly believe in side raises effectiveness! Lux, there is two things I suggest when people dont have good results from them, and usually it helps:

1) Do NOT keep your delts muscles under tension all the time. Perform your rep, then, make sure you completely relax your shoulders when the dumbels are in the starting position. Wait 1/2 to 1 second, then, perform your second rep. Keep going like this for every repetition. It will allow you to create more stimulus (actin & myosin) and reach muscle fibers failure instead of lactic acid failure… which is good for hypertrophy

2) Reach REAL failure. Keep perfect form, but stop when you CANT lift it anymore.

Good luck!

[Lux]

Cool, thanks for your input guys

Somebody questioned why i did :

Standing BB press 3x4-6 reps
DB lat raise 3x10-12 reps
Seated DB press 2x8-10

My response was that improving the strength of the BB press was priority. Then i was trying to isolate/pre exhaust the medial delts before getting a good effort and pump with the seated press to finish them off.

Whenever i do this my delts feel like i worked them real good. This guy said i was better just going heavy but i "personally" like the feel of using a mix of light/heavy/medium in a workout.

If i mentally enjoy it then i'll probably get a lot out of it

Oops, went slightly off topic there Just got back from the gym and on a bit of a high ;D

[beckie]

I find 'heavy' lat raises really work for me but only if I do them slower.I count 4 up,slight pause then 3 down.
Are you doing them with no bend or some bend in your elbows. I do them both ways and they both give me good results...
The key is 'time under tension' so make sure you don't rush lifting them up.

[youngblood]

A few things, after looking over your routine.

What's more important to you- feeling the muscle, more weight on the BB Presses, or results from an aesthetic point of view?

If it's the feel, then lighten up and do laterals with one arm. No matter if you use one arm or two, try to "catch" the DB at the top. Another way to put it, STOP the DB's at the top of the movement for just a brief second. Then lower slowly and under control. You may have to cut your weight in half....but you will feel the muscle better and the results (no matter the priority) will be better. More bang for your buck. Also, the lighter the weight, the slower you can lower them and more you will feel them.

If weight is truly most important, then you needed truly worry about feeling the medial delts too much. Your ego will be working, and that is what counts when weight matters, right? OK, OK, but do you see my underlying point? Again, slow down the movement on presses and you can try a two second pause at your chin- no lower because this is when the anterior delts come into major play. Lift, and lower, hold at the chin with zero momentum. Then explode up.

If results are what you want, then use laterals first. Prioritize!!! The result of doing this is two-fold. First, you will pre-exhaust your medial delts and make them work much harder during a press since they have to keep up with the anterior delts and not let them "have all the fun." Second, your presses will be down in weight, but you will feel the medial delts working that much more. You can also use the two second pause here, but not necessary.

Last point- are you going for a BBers physique? If so, you're using too many presses! Instead of the second and final pressing movement, try using a tri-set or a superset. Pump the delts full of blood after they've already been crammed with blood!!! Using laterals, Arnold Presses and front raises work really well, and you have to use such a light weight, all the above principles are observed.

[Lux]

Great post YB

I've been trying to focus on strength to gain size by thinking that if i'm stronger then the body will adapt and grow to cope with the increased load.

I'm currently at 155lbs and my overall long term target is a lean(ish) 170-175lbs. Theres old pics of me on here when i was a little lighter and leaner at roughly 140lbs.

So maybe with my training i've been trying to focus on too many goals at once. In one workout trying to get stronger, feel exersises and look better.

Do you feel a periodized approach like p/rr/s principles would be of benefit?
Heck, i'm going to be cheeky and ask if you could take a look at the 4 day split advice thread i made and offer your thoughts and maybe some pointers where i could improve?

Thanks for all of your input guys and gals, its very much appreciated

[RUBICON19]

I am the opposite. I focus on strength first. Heavy press, Heavy side lats, Heavy everything. More strength over time will = more size. Its been proven time and time again. I get NO where pumping.

[youngblood]

rubicon19 said:

More strength over time will = more size. Its been proven time and time again.

You sure about that? Dorian with his torn parts? How about "Glutezilla" Tommi Thorvidsen and his torn parts along with form that would make Ronnie Coleman cringe.

The best thing to do, is not ONE thing, but many things.

Don't pump. Don't go heavy. Don't go to failure, but do go till you can't stop. Do any and none of the above.

[Maximum6]

One thing I learned is to keep the arms basically straight (short of lock in the elbow) ..if you are doing it with the palms facing down, and elbows pointed back.

IF you tilt the db at the top of the movment..which results in the elbows pointed up...any bend in the elbow is find.

[sicario]

I think that the number one exercise that people do WRONG at my gym are side laterals!!!!!!! There are so many ways to do this exercise wrong I don't know where to begin describing all the mistakes I see people make on a daily basis (I'm not saying that is your case). I think that the best invested machine I ever bought for my gym was a side lateral machine. It makes it totally impossibe to do the exercise wrong, because the machine guides the movement for you. If you do have access to one of those machines, I encourage you to use it to totaly isolate your side delts, and ensure that you aren't doing the exercise wrong. Use a medium speed cadence, and I'm sure your side delts will be burning after 4-6 hard sets. The other advantage of using a machine is that it makes it really easy to tack on a strip set to your last set to totally fry your shoulders, Vin.

[RUBICON19]

youngblood said:

rubicon19 said:

More strength over time will = more size. Its been proven time and time again.

You sure about that? Dorian with his torn parts? How about "Glutezilla" Tommi Thorvidsen and his torn parts along with form that would make Ronnie Coleman cringe.

The best thing to do, is not ONE thing, but many things.

Don't pump. Don't go heavy. Don't go to failure, but do go till you can't stop. Do any and none of the above.

I am positive YB. Dont know Tommi. Dorian had pretty good form, but was NEVER actually that strong. Ronnie was one of the strongest BBers as well as biggest. His form was terrible!

I dont understand your point? Not sparring with you, just trying to understand.

The only time I've been injured is when NOT training for strength! I am not talking one rep max here..

Look at DC or Max OT. Produced many huge guys. This type of training works. Cuts through the chase. So why not use it. Its simple and effective. Maybe more effective than any other over the long haul. Look at Joel. Think that physique was built on burn sets? Nope. Heavy progressive lifting, and thats it.. Proof is in the pudding..

Anywho. I know for me (Training a loooong time), I am a genetic mishap, and the ONLY thing that has made me grow is getting stronger over time. Slowly, but surely.

[RUBICON19]

I guess my point is that I like to take the sure road. I have no time for messing around and hoping that this or that might work. Training for strength and power is FUN and also leads to garunteed results, so I choose that road.

[Lux]

Some really good posts from you guys in this thread

I'm going to try using the nautilus lat raise machine for a few weeks to see how i get on with it. The machine was designed to help target the muscle i'm aiming to work so things should go well.

With regards the rest of my training, i'm about to take a week of or deload, so an ideal time to look at new changes.
I had always planned on making my 4 day split flexible, so far i have used multiple rep ranges and changes exersises here and there to however the mood took me.

Now i'm planning on doing alternating heavy (4-6 reps) and medium (6-10 reps) weeks. Kind of like p/rr/s but without the shock week

[beckie]

One last tip from me-I have been lifting 15 years now and have figured out that if you can't 'feel' an exercise it is either not right for you or you are doing it wrong. Make sure your technique is right first then if you still can't 'feel' the muscle working then ditch that exercise.

[mrky03]

I've always got best results from heavy basic workouts which means pressing is number one and laterals are a secondary movement.

I use heavy weight, for me anyway and keep the pinky finger higher than the index finger at the top of the exercise raising the dumbbells no higher than ear level. Sometimes I do partials at the bottom of the range of motion after I can't do anymore full reps.

I've always gotten better results doing low reps with heavy basic exercises. I've "played" around with different routines over the past couple of years but I always come back to the basic heavy stuff! Light pumping workouts do little if anything for me.

[youngblood]

lux said:

Great post YB
Do you feel a periodized approach like p/rr/s principles would be of benefit?
Heck, i'm going to be cheeky and ask if you could take a look at the 4 day split advice thread i made and offer your thoughts and maybe some pointers where i could improve?

Thank you Lux.
Last night I sat down to take a look at your thread, and BAM!!! Life got in the way. I think the page was loaded for 2-3 hours and I didn't get a chance to read it. So I'll do that after I get a few things done tonight. Now to the questions you pose above...

A periodized approach to me is certainly the best way to achieve anything. Be it drinking diet coke, or trying to get another 5lbs on your lifts! Why?

Think of it this way; you like steak do you? Well, you wouldn't eat JUST steak all day every day because you like it and it contains all the necessary nutrients to make you closer to your goal, right? You would get bored, your body would acclimate, and you would end up regressing instead of progressing. You would develop food allergies and the steak is now nowhere near your friend, even though it tastes good. So why do that with weights too? Simple answer; it's not good to do.
Now, when you periodize your training, you don't always stick within a certain realm of training. If you're powerlifting, you want to use more lower reps in comparison to higher reps. In BBing, you do the opposite. However- it certainly helps your physique if you do heavy power training every now and then. This allows you to push yourself, thicken muscle fibers and create a rugged look that screams "I'm a true bodybuilder."
What I'm trying to say, is that no one rep range is good for any length of time. The benefits of changing your training style, rep ranges, rest periods, and quite a few other factors, greatly outweigh the pluses of always doing what works for you. Because in the end what works for you, well, will not after a certain amount of time! This is physiologically proven!!! It's nature, it cannot be denied no matter how much you want to argue. Your body WILL adjust itself and if it does not, it will die.
Float in between periods of different lifting styles=better. It is like a jigsaw puzzle. One of the trickier ones where all the pieces are shaped the same. You can put it together any way you would like. All of them will fit, and work. But in the end there is only one "right way." You see plenty of guys in the gym that are big, or have a big body part etc...and they do what works for them. But if you get them to open up to you, I'm sure within their words you would find that the routine that "they found and that's what works for them" is just what their body was physiologically calling for at the time. Example, HIT after doing a high-volume approach. Your body was so well adjusted to high volume and needing something of a break-but not a total layoff. You switched to HIT, and you grew! Why? You thought it was the program...it was not. It was just that your body needed the decrease from the constant volume/load it was under. You grew because you gave your muscles a chance to rest.
Now imagine if you could do this in a planned manner. You can; it's called Periodization.

[youngblood]

rubicon19 said:

I am positive YB. Dont know Tommi. Dorian had pretty good form, but was NEVER actually that strong. Ronnie was one of the strongest BBers as well as biggest. His form was terrible!

I'm not focusing on the form. I'm focusing on the training style. Dorian will tell you that the heavy lifting prior to contests, in addition to the set extenders, were the cause of his injuries. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. But if you think about it, constant abuse of the muscle under a load be it 30lbs or 300lbs a la Dorian....something can happen.

I dont understand your point? Not sparring with you, just trying to understand.

I'm not sparring with you either. I'm just having a discourse, for all of us (including myself) can learn from one another.
Like I used in the above post, because you feel you like the taste of steak and the results gotten from it, does that mean you will ALWAYS eat steak and only steak? No, in the same way you will vary your training style in some way, shape or form. Even a SMALL adjustment such as resting 90 seconds instead of 180 will make your body have to adjust. Adjust=adapt=results.

The only time I've been injured is when NOT training for strength! I am not talking one rep max here..

I would have to look at EVERYTHING you did leading up to your injury to feel I have a conclusive result of your above statement.
How much did you eat, how was your form, what point in the set were you at...near failure? Many things are involved in an injury, and that's not indicative of whether a program is effective or not. For all we know, you could have thrown a 25lb plate at Mo, and it ricocheted off the Pulldown station and bounced back at your forehead!!!

Look at DC or Max OT. Produced many huge guys. This type of training works. Cuts through the chase. So why not use it. Its simple and effective. Maybe more effective than any other over the long haul. Look at Joel. Think that physique was built on burn sets? Nope. Heavy progressive lifting, and thats it.. Proof is in the pudding..

ANY program produces big, small, strong or weak guys. How do we know that the Max-OT program wasn't the results of a steroid regime just kicking in...so the results were that much more exacerbated?
As for the heavy lifting, I agree with you!!! I lift heavy quite a bit when I can. I love that feeling. But again, it's only one color to paint a picture with. If you are a bodybuilder, and I seem to remember your posts and contest results saying you are.....you shouldn't ever focus on one type of training style.

Anywho. I know for me (Training a loooong time), I am a genetic mishap, and the ONLY thing that has made me grow is getting stronger over time. Slowly, but surely.

Again, like in the quote about having to see EVERYTHING you did/done for an end result; I would think that you respond BETTER to one style of training because you may have more fast twitch fibers or something like that. BUT, I doubt you have only done one type of training in your long time of this passion we call lifting. I'll apply the puzzle analogy here, again;

You probably get great results by lifting heavy due to your genetic structure (or in your phrasing of it....lack of genetics? ;D ). But imagine if you put the pieces of the puzzle together in an optimal fashion, rather than a haphazard manner. Would the puzzle look right, or would it look "better?"

Please, I'm not trying to bicker. Just having conversation for the good of all that want to get involved. Not saying my way is the right or wrong way, or that your methods are either/or.

[mrky03]

ANY program produces big, small, strong or weak guys. How do we know that the Max-OT program wasn't the results of a steroid regime just kicking in...so the results were that much more exacerbated?

Sorry, I've NEVER used steroids! ;D

[youngblood]

mrky03 said:

ANY program produces big, small, strong or weak guys. How do we know that the Max-OT program wasn't the results of a steroid regime just kicking in...so the results were that much more exacerbated?

Sorry, I've NEVER used steroids! ;D

Who said I was referring to you? In actuality I was talking about Skip LaCour, Jeff Willet, or other guys you see in ads being proponents of a certain way of training.

Not feeling guilty are we MrKy? ;D