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Post by masterschamp on Feb 13, 2007 18:11:14 GMT -5
I posted this on Eric's site.........I'm sure a few of you here have gone through this as well:
You folks here, along with Tim's crew over at WOTW, know me better than any board (very few) that I have been on. I recently began to participate in two other forums, and over the past several days I have recieved several e-mails that, while not accusatory in a direct sense, were making implications regarding AAS use. These were coming from people who were obviously couching their intended meaning in the form of seeking answers on behalf of others, or in response to "advice" they have been given in regards to AAS use. C'mon....give me a freakin break!!! I am going to print a reply I gave in response, with the name omitted,of course, to someone who was either given some terrible AND misinformed advice, or was "fishing" for answers, as he had told me he was "advised" to go on a 4 month regimen of DAILY injections each of GH, Test, and Tren, in ridiculous amounts, ( AAS dosages inaccurately referred to as I.U. when it should have been mg.), because, in order to compete in the Nationals, you HAD to, as "they" were all juiced....which I am sure,was meant to include myself!! ....I, in no way, mean to impune all who say they are natural, as I know the character and veracity of those here who say they are. However, in my response, I do make a general observation regarding the natural community as a whole that I do stand by. As I said, I mean to offend no one, but I DO get tired of hearing, as I have over, AND OVER the years, that to reach a certain level of development all that matters is drugs!!
This does deserve an answer to help clear some things up for you........
Firstly, unless you are on an HRT regimen prescribed by your doc it makes NO SENSE in the world for you to consider using HGH and Steriods. Why?......to win a trophy!!!!! NEVER consider trading your health for something as trivial as winning a trophy....You can go buy one for a hell of alot less than it would cost in terms of money AND health.There are HUNDREDS of other MUCH MORE important things to define yourself by other than by a bodybuilding title.
Secondly,I have known competitors throughout the years who have taken everything under the sun, and the dosages you have mentioned are INSANE!!!! I know NO ONE, no matter their competitive level, who uses that amount of HGH,Test AND Tren ( by the way, AS dosages are measure in mg. NOT units!).........clearly you are getting this advice from someone who has no prior experience and/or exposure to this side of the sport and is just passing along the typical misinformation that a big portion of the "natural" set passes along to discredit those with physiques far surpassing theirs! NOT EVERYONE WITH AN OUTSTANDING PHYSIQUE DID IT BECAUSE THEY USED DRUGS!!!!
No drug in the world will give you the natural factors you are born with that ultimately determine your development such as shoulder width, width through the bone structure of the waist, joint size, muscle belly shape, and the individual propensity to gain muscle.All the AAS and whatever else is used just take you to a "bigger" version of who you would be.
I have trained for over 20 years....I could EASILY have been a HEAVYWEIGHT by now if I had decided to rely on AAS, GH, and whatever else for my development........ the fact that I compete as a Middleweight and have done so for a LONG time would be enough to indicate that to anyone TRULY knowledgeable with drug usage in the sport.
BTW...this fall I plan on enetering my first tested shows ever in an attempt to attain PRO status in several natural organizations as well. I have competed in only NPC events throughout my career, as I never really believed in the validity or accuracy of testing methods that are generally employed. I now figure why not....I feel as though I deserve the opportunity to achieve pro status in any venue I choose, and to no longer limit my opportunity to do so. This sport is about SO MUCH MORE than just drugs that I refuse to addresss it as if it were. Again, the "natural" ( not all) community is responsible for this to a large degree as the continual excuse is " if I took drugs, I could look like that too" . Statements like that only indicate the true ignorance of those making the statement and demean the efforts of so many in the gym. My sole intention in replying to you was to try and make you see the folly of drug usage at the level you had described. Whoever had given you that information was truly ignorant of not only the drug protocols currently in use,along with the correct measurements and terminology regarding dosage, they probably attribute any development beyond theirs as a result of drug use.
Keith
_________________
NO EXCUSES !
Last edited by masterschamp on Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:42 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by masterschamp on Feb 14, 2007 10:59:47 GMT -5
#rantingsmiley2sx# #flamingsmiley3zp# .......Allright......feeling much better now!..................... #bbeach3nu#
Keith
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Post by RUBICON19 on Feb 14, 2007 15:00:30 GMT -5
You are doing a tested show? Dont take that the wrong way.
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Post by BigMikeReed on Feb 14, 2007 19:10:42 GMT -5
Hey Champ:
That was quite a rant!.. but understandable. I really do get tired of hearing from folks that say the only reason so-and-so is big is because of AAS usage. While, yes.. I can usually tell someone on gear, I sometimes cannot tell someone that is NOT on but looks like it. My point is just that I agree with what your frustration is-- that people will look at someone and automatically think that it's all drugs.
Keith- hope you feel better after that.. Also- right on for doing the tested show. You know I'm behind ya.
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Post by masterschamp on Feb 15, 2007 8:02:17 GMT -5
You are doing a tested show? Dont take that the wrong way. Yeah Randy....I figure why keep limiting my options? I'm gonna enter alot more comps this year and next....tested and non tested. I'm actually going over possible contests of tested show organizations right now. I plan on entering several different organization sponsored shows, intsead of staying with a one organization. Again, it's about increasing the options available to me. Keith Keith |
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Post by masterschamp on Feb 15, 2007 9:19:01 GMT -5
Hey Champ: That was quite a rant!.. but understandable. I really do get tired of hearing from folks that say the only reason so-and-so is big is because of AAS usage. While, yes.. I can usually tell someone on gear, I sometimes cannot tell someone that is NOT on but looks like it. My point is just that I agree with what your frustration is-- that people will look at someone and automatically think that it's all drugs. Keith- hope you feel better after that.. Also- right on for doing the tested show. You know I'm behind ya. Thanks, Mike It does get frustrating to constantly hear that you must be all about drugs just because your development surpasses some one else's. I'll never forget the comment a friend of mine made ( a professional, who for obvious reasons I will not name)..."Don't these guys realize that I would've beaten any one of them before I ever took a drug?" His reference was obviously to genetic predisposition. That is what I am ALWAYS emphasizing when I mention individual differences. Some guys have it...ALOT don't. Yet, the guys that don't, tend to think that if they were drugged they'd be winning the shows! They don't realize that most of them could take all of the drugs in the world, and at outrageous dosages, and they would still get beat by the genetic superior who uses minimally, or not at all! I also believe that genetic predisposition ALSO includes DRIVE, DETERMINATION, MOTIVATION, and the ability to push yourself WELL PAST THE NORM. I know these are character traits, but I believe ALOT of character has a genetic componenet ....just my opinion! My "favorite" is the guy who ALWAYS has an excuse for not training as hard or as frequently as he needs to, says he doesn't have the time or willpower to diet like he should, doesn't really have a clue how to do either, but thinks he knows everything cause he reads MEN's HEALTH and FITNESS magazine, overeats,drinks and /or smokes, has NEVER stepped on stage, and spends most of his free time partying, then has the balls to say the only difference between him and me is drugs!!! Know anyone like that? #wtfmore0gm# |
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Post by mrbeefy on Feb 15, 2007 9:28:43 GMT -5
I know a bunch of them!!! Playing Devils Advocate  , I do believe there is power in KNOWLEDGE. You can't know good...without bad. You can't know right...without left. You can't know black...without white. You can't know "the dark side" (AAS), without "natural". I'm not supporting it's ACTUAL USE, but knowing how it works, and why could help you in your natural goals. It's like...people who have NO CLUE, about fitness, telling you how to work out, or a athiest trying to explain God to you. People BS me about the military...I spent 14 years there. People BS me about the martial arts... 30 years, 6th Degree Black Belt. People BS me about marriage...30 years + Some people know.....some people THINK they know. Can they walk the walk? Or do they just talk the talk? My 2 cents (after taxes). |
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Post by Karrie on Feb 15, 2007 11:58:14 GMT -5
Hey Champ: That was quite a rant!.. but understandable. I really do get tired of hearing from folks that say the only reason so-and-so is big is because of AAS usage. While, yes.. I can usually tell someone on gear, I sometimes cannot tell someone that is NOT on but looks like it. My point is just that I agree with what your frustration is-- that people will look at someone and automatically think that it's all drugs. Keith- hope you feel better after that.. Also- right on for doing the tested show. You know I'm behind ya. Thanks, Mike It does get frustrating to constantly hear that you must be all about drugs just because your development surpasses some one else's. I'll never forget the comment a friend of mine made ( a professional, who for obvious reasons I will not name)..."Don't these guys realize that I would've beaten any one of them before I ever took a drug?" His reference was obviously to genetic predisposition. That is what I am ALWAYS emphasizing when I mention individual differences. Some guys have it...ALOT don't. Yet, the guys that don't, tend to think that if they were drugged they'd be winning the shows! They don't realize that most of them could take all of the drugs in the world, and at outrageous dosages, and they would still get beat by the genetic superior who uses minimally, or not at all! I also believe that genetic predisposition ALSO includes DRIVE, DETERMINATION, MOTIVATION, and the ability to push yourself WELL PAST THE NORM. I know these are character traits, but I believe ALOT of character has a genetic componenet ....just my opinion! My "favorite" is the guy who ALWAYS has an excuse for not training as hard or as frequently as he needs to, says he doesn't have the time or willpower to diet like he should, doesn't really have a clue how to do either, but thinks he knows everything cause he reads MEN's HEALTH and FITNESS magazine, overeats,drinks and /or smokes, has NEVER stepped on stage, and spends most of his free time partying, then has the balls to say the only difference between him and me is drugs!!! Know anyone like that? #wtfmore0gm# #highfive5wp# |
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Post by GerryT on Feb 15, 2007 13:48:12 GMT -5
Excellent post, Keith. People seem to want to think the worst. My mom used to say that if they are talking about you, it only means they are leaving someone else alone.
Great comments and behind you 100%, bud. Just keep up the great work.
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Post by Intensity on Feb 15, 2007 13:49:06 GMT -5
Great subject Keith!
By what should I begin, this is a very sensitive subject for me? First, as I said many times, I have high respect for every top athletes in the sport, they all have terrific genetic, work ethic and dedication for the lifestyle… drug user or not! That being said, i do think that natural bodybuilding and bodybuilding is two different things… As an exemple, roller blade race and Nascar race are both races… but two very different one! I agree that the number one factors are, genetic, knowledge and dedication, but when two competitors are the same at those aspects, if one is using and the other is not the difference between them will be more than remarkable, no doubt! That's why i'm fine with anyone using drugs, although I also dont believe a trophy worth it, but at least this is their bodies so it's their decision, and I dont take anything, from what outstanding they do! For example, my training partner and one of my best friends are using and they are still my training partner and best friend… and I'm still "wowed" by what they achieved! The thing i would not agree with, is user trying to convince kids that they need to use if they want results… and user trying to prove i dont know what by entering natural contests… and i know some will tell me "Why shouldnt i register, almost everyone in those contest are user" Yea, i know, but it's not because people are cheater and liar that everyone needs to be like that! Let those roller blade racers race together : ;D
Mo
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Post by BigMikeReed on Feb 16, 2007 15:24:43 GMT -5
Looks like we're all in agreement here. On the subject of "natural" shows vs "drug tested" shows vs "non-tested'... I believe that there are THREE different categories to think about and here is what they mean to me:
Natural shows- regular food, OTC supplements, ass busting workouts in the gym and dedication to all aspects. I really believe this should be a natural for life or 7 years non-drugs.
Tested- I think this should be 2 years "natural". ALL competitors should be off for at least 2 years to compete. More level playing field for those who have made a choice to be natrual after AAS.
Non-tested. I think this show is for all AAS users and everyone else who wants to see how they compare.
I respect ALL bodybuilders - natural or not. I beleive while our appearances can be vastly different, all the work, dedication, etc is the same. I have friends that are AAS users and some that are not. Everyone respects everyone and their accomplishments no matter what road they are taking "supplement-wise". While we might kid around with each other, a 16 inch arm on a natural competitior is every bit as impressive of an accomplishemt as an 18 or 19 inch arm is on a non-natural guy.
Welll.. I'm rambling as usual now... I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said I guess... My feeling is just that I dont' judge a book by it's cover and don't yell "drugs" at a big guy and don't yell "Natty" at a smaller guy because I've found that what you see isn't always true.
P.S. and for Keith I don't care how he fits into any of these categories- all I see here is a quality person that motivates us all.
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Post by mrbeefy on Feb 16, 2007 15:32:15 GMT -5
MBR....
The only problem I see in that...I saw at a show a couple of years ago.
Guy won the NATURAL SHOW Overall.....This guy was a freak. He was either using something undetectable or had used f or so long, then got off of it...He just stuck that way!!!
Standing naturally, you could balance a glass on his pecs!
Freak of nature? genetics? Science? I don't know for sure....but he blew EVERYBODY out of the water, and allegedly tested clean.
So I guess my rant would be, that if someone used, even if they were clean for 2 years.....it still gave them an awful BIG jumpstart.
I guess we could go down the road of, "If the females have breast enhancements, arethey natural competitors?"
I guess then you have to look at their reason for the enhancement.
hmmmmmmm
yes...thangs that make ya go...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?!?
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Post by Intensity on Feb 16, 2007 15:36:27 GMT -5
Agree, Great posts Mike and Frank!
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Post by Tim Wescott on Feb 16, 2007 15:46:33 GMT -5
I could care less what anone does with their choices,pro or con,but I hate users who compete in a natural contest.
That being said,I agree with Keith on all points,and I know for a fact that a good work ethic,genetics,and food will take you far.
Just look at the nattys on this board for further proof.
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Post by BigMikeReed on Feb 16, 2007 18:17:35 GMT -5
MBR.... The only problem I see in that...I saw at a show a couple of years ago. Guy won the NATURAL SHOW Overall.....This guy was a freak. He was either using something undetectable or had used f or so long, then got off of it...He just stuck that way!!! Standing naturally, you could balance a glass on his pecs! Freak of nature? genetics? Science? I don't know for sure....but he blew EVERYBODY out of the water, and allegedly tested clean. So I guess my rant would be, that if someone used, even if they were clean for 2 years.....it still gave them an awful BIG jumpstart. I guess we could go down the road of, "If the females have breast enhancements, arethey natural competitors?" I guess then you have to look at their reason for the enhancement. hmmmmmmm yes...thangs that make ya go...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?!? I TOTALLY agree. What I was saying was that tested shows are for AAS users and nattys that want to compete there. Natural shows should be OFF LIMITS to AAS users. I don't really know what anyone who uses enhancing drugs would get out of beating guys who don't. |
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Post by masterschamp on Feb 16, 2007 19:23:03 GMT -5
Looks like we're all in agreement here. On the subject of "natural" shows vs "drug tested" shows vs "non-tested'... I believe that there are THREE different categories to think about and here is what they mean to me: Natural shows- regular food, OTC supplements, ass busting workouts in the gym and dedication to all aspects. I really believe this should be a natural for life or 7 years non-drugs. Tested- I think this should be 2 years "natural". ALL competitors should be off for at least 2 years to compete. More level playing field for those who have made a choice to be natrual after AAS. Non-tested. I think this show is for all AAS users and everyone else who wants to see how they compare. I respect ALL bodybuilders - natural or not. I beleive while our appearances can be vastly different, all the work, dedication, etc is the same. I have friends that are AAS users and some that are not. Everyone respects everyone and their accomplishments no matter what road they are taking "supplement-wise". While we might kid around with each other, a 16 inch arm on a natural competitior is every bit as impressive of an accomplishemt as an 18 or 19 inch arm is on a non-natural guy. Welll.. I'm rambling as usual now... I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said I guess... My feeling is just that I dont' judge a book by it's cover and don't yell "drugs" at a big guy and don't yell "Natty" at a smaller guy because I've found that what you see isn't always true. P.S. and for Keith I don't care how he fits into any of these categories- all I see here is a quality person that motivates us all. AWESOME post, Mike. I think 5 years off is a good cut off to be cosidered for tested shows..... The effects of steroids taken before then, in my opinion would be neglible if any at all.....if you want proof, find the pictures of Kevin Levrone when in training for the Olympia and then find the shots taken of him after he'd been off for LESS than 2 years. He went from about 250-255 shredded to 205, fairly lean.You don't need drugs to get to 205, fairly lean. Same for Tom Prince, look at him when on, then after forced to go off for health reasons. If anyone here knows consistent users who have gone off for good, for health or other reasons, you know what I mean. I played football in college with guys who were 6'3' at 275 around 10% BF and never touched anything but a barbell. And I still have a problem with the term "natural". I've mentioned it before ,but I think it is total hypocrisy for someone to preach against AAS use, then go gobble up the latest, greatest, pro-hormone or steroid alternative. In my particular case, I have beaten guys who were on tons of stuff throughout my career so I could care less if I'm in a "natural" show and someone might be using. I can promise that if I am in a "natural" show I DEFINITELY will meet that organization's required standards on drug use. Lastly, even in a show where everyone is on drugs..it doesn't matter whose the BIGGEST if someone else is the BEST. In just about every one of my Overall wins, I beat the Heavyweight for the title....LITTLE OLD 174 POUND MIDDLEWEIGHT ME. I think what alot of guys can't comprehend is that someone who is TRULY gifted for this sport would beat 95% of all of his present or future competitors without relying on drugs....especially in the LOWER weight classes. I played football (safety) at the University of Pittsburgh at a bodyweight of 187 pounds at about 8% BF.....NEVER touched a drug, and could run a 4.39 40. I then got into bodybuilding and competed,as I do NOW, as a middleweight...174 pounds at 2-3% BF with NO CARDIO. What a freakin BEAST!!!! Yeah..it's ALL drugs!!! Let me spell it out for you...G-E-N-E-T-I-C-S. Keith |
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Post by mrbeefy on Feb 16, 2007 19:56:10 GMT -5
Keith..... I knew it.......PITTSBURGH! and I live in BROWNS TOWN!!! Good thing I'm not a football fan!!! Great response to this post too  Frank |
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Post by masterschamp on Feb 16, 2007 20:17:00 GMT -5
Keith..... I knew it.......PITTSBURGH! and I live in BROWNS TOWN!!! Good thing I'm not a football fan!!! Great response to this post too Frank Browns!!!!!!!! Ok......even with that MAJOR flaw...you're still a great guy,Frank!barely!! ;D ;D |
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Post by mrky03 on Feb 17, 2007 14:29:25 GMT -5
Great post guys! I am in total agreement with the comments you all have made.
When I won the overall Ky. title in 03 the first thing that one of my friends told me after the show was, none of these guys are going to believe you are natural! I took it as a compliment, but after I gave it some thought it made me kinda sad to think that the sport that I've been involved in for so many yrs. has been reduced to people thinking that the only thing that separates the winners from the losers is AAS use!
When I train for a show I tell my self , okay somebody else might beat me but they better be getting up at 5:00am to do cardio and training and dieting their azz off for 16 weeks! Because there is much more to this thing than simply sticking a needle in your butt and walking out on stage to collect a trophy! #smileyonsoapbox4jy#
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, I do believe there is power in KNOWLEDGE.
