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Post by 1705total on May 24, 2007 7:13:58 GMT -5
I love bodybuilding. I love the internal challenge it presents each and everyone of us. I love stepping on stage and creating a posing routine that is expressive and entertaining. I love our sport.
But I am even more dissapointed then ever with it.
Yet I marvel at what others can do with their bodies. I look at today's pros, and wonder how it is possible to build such mass and get so cut. I look at Ronnie Colemen or Jay or Markus in awe!
I think of guys like heath and victor and dexter and admire the aesthetics they bring.
But....................................................
Recently I went on youtube and watched some videos of the following athletes
Bob Paris
Matt Mendenhall
Lee Labrada
Samir Bannout (circa 1983)
Mohammed Makkawy
Berry DeMay
Lee Haney
I was gobsmacked! These guys possed absolutely beautiful physiques!
I remember during the 80's when I really got into this sport, that the knock on Rich Gaspari was his blockyness. He could never beat Haney because of his lack of size and his lack of symmetry. He was considered narrow across the shoulders and thick waisted. Look at him then and comparing him to todays standards, I believe it would be different. I think if Richie stepped on stage today people would regard him as possesing beautiful symmetry and aesthetically pleasing!
Our sport has changed so much over the last 20 years.
Sadly I do not believe it has done so for the better.
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Post by Rich on May 24, 2007 8:37:52 GMT -5
It has not changed for the better, but I recently read a pretty compelling argument from Bob Ciccerilo that it has gone the only direction that it could, and that it had to.
Personally, I would MUCH rather be wathing the 88 Olympia than the recent fiascos. And I'd much rather model my posing after, say, Lee Labrada than Markus Ruhl.
But Bob made some good points. Bodybuilding is a fringe sport. It can't go mainstream, because it will never have any appeal. Football is something a bunch of guys can go out and have a pickup game of on a Sunday afternoon after watching the game. Same with baseball, basketball, hockey ... you get the idea.
But for bodybuilding to go mainstream, it would have to be accessible to your average civilian, and it is not - nor can it be, really. We know what it takes to play. And the stage show ain't it.
So Bob's point was that for a fringe sport to stay fringe, it has to keep getting more and more extreme, or it becomes stale. He's right, unfortunately. So if we all would rather look like Haney than Atwood, fine. I know I would. But if all bodybuilders still looked like Haney the sport would have died already from fan boredom. The envelope needs to be pushed. You could push conditioning alone (Munzer comes to mind), or you could push size alone (who's that guy that never ever competed but was/is a monster?). Or you could do the extreme. Push both - but sacrifice aesthetics.
I'm not happy about it. I hardly follow pro bb'ing at all anymore, though I like quite a few of them. But I think Bob was right - that's how it has to be.
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Post by 1705total on May 24, 2007 8:58:17 GMT -5
I would disagree with Bob Chick. Yes bodybuilding is a progressive sport, and it variety is what keeps everyone interested. But physiques change regardless of whether or not they progress, if that makes sense.
Bob Paris didn't look like Gaspari, nor did Gaspari look like DeMay. So the variety of the physiques could keep us interested, but the problem is the "pushing of the enevelope" has caused disfigured physiques with lumps and bumps, and waist lines exceeding 40", and athletes so large they can barely move.
We be a fringe sport, but that shouldn't give us liscense to grow monstrosities. The judging has change greatly. Look at the recent New York pro, although I think Branch was justified in winning, why is there no emphasis on Desmond Miller to try reduce his waist size?
I remember how hard athletes would try and improve their symmetry and aesthetics. Through diet and training.
I am all for progression but not unabashed progression. I do believe the sport is fringe, but we have allowed aspects of what makes a good physique to be erased from the judging criteria.
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CoryC
Novice Bodybuilder
Meat Popsicle
Posts: 12
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Post by CoryC on May 24, 2007 10:57:41 GMT -5
This same debate is going on over at Mayhem, and I'll say the same thing here I said there....
Bodybuilding is where its at today because those in control WANTED it to get there. At any time the judges COULD have stopped the trend and named say, Shawn Ray as Mr. O but they never did. Because of this mass became the new aesthetic and bodybuilders like Melvin Anthony and Ronnie Rockel were relegated to being contenders at "C" class shows.
The excuse that was given for this was that the "fans" wouldn't accept a smaller Mr. O. That's a ridiculous argument when you consider that probably only around 30% of bobyduilding fans EVER accept the judges decision at the O. It's widely considered to be the worst judged show of the year from top to bottom, and totally out of the flow of judging from the other shows on the schedule.
The only exception to the 30% rule was the 2003 Olympia where Ronnie obviously mopped the floor with his competition. Even then you probably had 20% who disagreed, so the argument that fan's would reject the decision is disingenous.
All that being said I think the Genie is out of the bottle. I don't think there will be anyone brave enough at the top of the game to try and streamline down. They will either be ignored by the judges and fade away, or be ignored, bulk back up and be rewarded again.
It's very obvious that there's a disconnect between what the judges feel is bodybuilding excellence, and what the fans feel to represent the same.
One of the biggest complaints you hear from fans is that too many of today's competitors look like chemistry expirements. They do because those in charge don't care.
They didn't care about steroids in Arnold's day, they didn't care about diuretics (until a death, and then only for a show or two) in Haney's day, they didn't care about GH in Dorian's day, they didn't care about Insulin in Ronnie's day, why should they care about synthol and other things today?
Asking the judges to care about those things would be also asking them to admit that they were wrong to allow the other "advancements" that they let pass.
And FYI: this is NOT an argument for (or against) steroids or any of the other drugs mentioned, its just a statement of the reality of the situation.
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Post by mrbeefy on May 25, 2007 11:21:33 GMT -5
I have only been active in bodybuilding for a few years, so it's past is just the things I've read and heard. I was not fortunate enough to have lived through much of it.
The past cannot be changed, so onto the present.
I agree that, as many things in our modern society, this business is money driven. Follow the dollars. Back in "the day", would you pay money at the sideshow to see the man? No, you wouldn't. But many paid money to see the tallest man, or the bearded lady.
Now look to the Olympia Stage....and a few others as a matter of fact. Would you pay money to see..the bodybuilder? Maybe, but would people pay money to see 8 time Mr. Olympia, who Leg presses 2500 lbs? Yes. they would and they do. He's the modern 7 foot man of the sideshow. Would people pay money to see the lady? Nope. But would people pay money to see a lady with ripped muscles? Nope...that's why the female bodybuilders are losing their appeal.....perhaps they need a beard (I think some have them anyways).
Would you pay money to watch just a football game? Maybe, if your son is playing. Would you play money to see the Superbowl? MANY do.
And to what price? Will people do WHATEVER it takes to reach that goal? At what cost? And to how many people? Like a pebble in a pond, the ripples affect many people. Someone jokes that Baseball players using AS are giving bodybuilding a bad name. Hmmmmm...now there's a thought!
So you get my point. The forces that be support the money, not the men and women who are on stage, know these things. That's why it's a business venture, with contracts, and endoresments. When you make it a business...the SPORT changes. So it is with so many things in life.
When I taught the martial arts, I enjoyed it, and didn't charge my students. When I opened two schools, and incurred overhead, it turned into a business, and lost it's enjoyment.
When you look at church as a business, does it feel the same? How do you feel when a pastor continues to ask for more money?
Let's really go out on a ledge. Sex. If you're paying for it, is it making love? I know, bad example, but just trying to drive home the point.
WE like what we do. We enjoy being healthy. WE enjoy hitting the gym. WE enjoy how WE look. SOME of us enjoy the dieting (I didn't say we, because I don't like that part!), but it is part of what we do.
When we make bodybuilding a business, it changes. It will not be the same.
So, on our road to health, we need to remember why we do, what we do. Is it a business venture for you, or is it still something you enjoy with a passion?
I don't worry too much about what others may think. Opinions will always vary. A fringe sport? Money Maker? Monsters on Stage? I have more important things in my life to contend with.
Look to your heart....and listen with your soul...and you will find the answers for YOU.
So there ya have it.....my rant for the day! ;D
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Post by masterschamp on May 25, 2007 13:21:01 GMT -5
My take on things is that in the bigger scheme of things it really doesn't matter.
What direction the sport has gone on to, in terms of the professional ranks only affects the professionals...and they are a SMALL percentage of all competitive bodybuilders that are out there. I've been competing for nearly 15 years now, and I have enjoyed a fair amount of success. And I have never stepped on stage heavier than 174 pounds!! Up through the amatuer ranks, all the way to the National Level, weight classes allow for guys like me to compete, and be successful. I have no desire to be 270 pounds and ripped, as I know what I would have to do to get there. BUT...I DO NOT hold that against those that choose to do so...that is their choice and I totally respect everyone's right to choose their own life's path.AND it takes a HELL of alot of dedication and hard work to be successful in this sport at ANY level. Don't get me wrong....my major goal I am shooting for at this point in my career IS to get a that pro card...but as a goal....not so I can compete in the Olympia, or as a circuit member of Professional Bodybuilding. That is a choice only a certain few have made and they have made that choice fully knowing the risks involved.....as have MANY athletes in MANY other sports. I never looked to bodybuilding as a career to earn a living from and I am VERY happy with the career I do have and make my living from. It is extremely rare that anyone makes a great living from the sport over any appreciable time frame, therefore I think it is unrealistic to enter this sport with that being your sole ambition. But, if someone sees what that would mean in terms of where they have to go body-wise, and they are still willing to do that, I can't begrudge them their dreams. STILL...that doesn't mean you can't participate, compete, and still be fairly judged, even if you are not a mass monster. There are competitive avenues for EVERYONE in this sport. Does it really matter what the top pro judging criteria is?....How many are going to make it to the professional ranks, anyway... and,..out of all of those who compete, how many want to go that far, knowing all it would take? I see it as I have the best of both worlds...I have a wonderful family and a great career that has provided for me very well over the years, AND I get to compete athletically in a sport that I love...because I ENJOY it, not because I have to for my livelihood. There are thousands of competitive bodybuilders today who still embody that classic, aesthetic look, in shows all across the country, all the way up through the highest ranks of national level competition. I feel that bodybuilding for me has NEVER changed as I still look to refine a body image that has ALWAYS appealed to ME. I have NEVER felt presssured to go far beyond that. Regardless of the direction of the PRO shows today, there is plenty of room for amatuers to compete fairly at all levels of competition. Judging at the highest professional level has no real world implications for me or the thousands of other competitors who do this purely out of a love for the sport.
Keith
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Post by Tim Wescott on May 25, 2007 13:33:05 GMT -5
Damn you Keith..............thanks for shattering my dream of weighing 270 ripped to shreds by October!! #smileygrouplaugh5js#
Damn good post my brother! #arockon6ha#
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Post by mrbeefy on May 25, 2007 14:09:48 GMT -5
Keith....Kudos...well put! Tim....You are ripped....why wait until October!  |
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Post by Tim Wescott on May 25, 2007 14:23:15 GMT -5
Keith....Kudos...well put! Tim....You are ripped....why wait until October! I`m cut,but I wanna` weigh 280!!  ;D |
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CoryC
Novice Bodybuilder
Meat Popsicle
Posts: 12
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Post by CoryC on May 25, 2007 21:25:07 GMT -5
I should have clarified my response better. My bad. Every board has its own personality and it will take me some time to learn this one....
The rank and file bodybuilding is fine. There are more people in more sports today using bodybuilding principles to excel. A majority of bodybuilders pursue it in healthy ways. I mistook the original post to be referencing professional bodybuilding at the highest level, which I believe is a mess right now.
Sorry for the confusion. I don't disagree that there are many people practicing bodybuilding the "right" way.
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Post by mrbeefy on May 25, 2007 21:32:57 GMT -5
Boy, this guy Tim wants everything..BIg AND CUT! ;D He probably wants cake with his ice cream too? Milk with his cookies? Steak with his potatoes? Yin with his Yang? ( ok, there's an opening if I ever saw one!)  CoryC: All your points were well taken Bro. You articulated them well. Thanks for the additional comments too! |
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Post by intenceman on May 25, 2007 22:52:24 GMT -5
Keith....Kudos...well put! Tim....You are ripped....why wait until October! I`m cut,but I wanna` weigh 280!! ;D . OMG a 280 lb Tim Wescott? Ughh if that ever happenred, Jay would have to hand over that Sandow. Speakng of Jay, he's going to be the guest poser at my contest! |
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Post by intenceman on May 25, 2007 22:59:42 GMT -5
My take on things is that in the bigger scheme of things it really doesn't matter. What direction the sport has gone on to, in terms of the professional ranks only affects the professionals...and they are a SMALL percentage of all competitive bodybuilders that are out there. I've been competing for nearly 15 years now, and I have enjoyed a fair amount of success. And I have never stepped on stage heavier than 174 pounds!! Up through the amatuer ranks, all the way to the National Level, weight classes allow for guys like me to compete, and be successful. I have no desire to be 270 pounds and ripped, as I know what I would have to do to get there. BUT...I DO NOT hold that against those that choose to do so...that is their choice and I totally respect everyone's right to choose their own life's path.AND it takes a HELL of alot of dedication and hard work to be successful in this sport at ANY level. Don't get me wrong....my major goal I am shooting for at this point in my career IS to get a that pro card...but as a goal....not so I can compete in the Olympia, or as a circuit member of Professional Bodybuilding. That is a choice only a certain few have made and they have made that choice fully knowing the risks involved.....as have MANY athletes in MANY other sports. I never looked to bodybuilding as a career to earn a living from and I am VERY happy with the career I do have and make my living from. It is extremely rare that anyone makes a great living from the sport over any appreciable time frame, therefore I think it is unrealistic to enter this sport with that being your sole ambition. But, if someone sees what that would mean in terms of where they have to go body-wise, and they are still willing to do that, I can't begrudge them their dreams. STILL...that doesn't mean you can't participate, compete, and still be fairly judged, even if you are not a mass monster. There are competitive avenues for EVERYONE in this sport. Does it really matter what the top pro judging criteria is?....How many are going to make it to the professional ranks, anyway... and,..out of all of those who compete, how many want to go that far, knowing all it would take? I see it as I have the best of both worlds...I have a wonderful family and a great career that has provided for me very well over the years, AND I get to compete athletically in a sport that I love...because I ENJOY it, not because I have to for my livelihood. There are thousands of competitive bodybuilders today who still embody that classic, aesthetic look, in shows all across the country, all the way up through the highest ranks of national level competition. I feel that bodybuilding for me has NEVER changed as I still look to refine a body image that has ALWAYS appealed to ME. I have NEVER felt presssured to go far beyond that. Regardless of the direction of the PRO shows today, there is plenty of room for amatuers to compete fairly at all levels of competition. Judging at the highest professional level has no real world implications for me or the thousands of other competitors who do this purely out of a love for the sport. Keith . Well said Keith, its one reason I do it. Also being a personal trainer, it tends to help my bottom line. You don't have to be an IFBB to make some money off your physique . But yeah its abouiy the fun- and the trophies are always great to go home with. |
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Post by Sal Paradise on May 27, 2007 19:41:00 GMT -5
I truly love it when Keith gets going.
And the one key factor is everyone is different and has different goals.
I for one don't find competing to be the great thrill my partner does. I got more from being on stage with my guitar and singing than I have out of my bodybulding exploits. I have competed and will continue to do so though the actual competition not as my main goal.
I have my sights set on a show that I hope will help with a personal training business if I can get it off the ground, or at least help with getting clients if I choose to work for an established training studio.
That being said I truly love being in the gym and the atmosphere and helping others when I can and learning as much as possible - regardless of whether or not I step on stage.
And as all people are different I truly wouldn't mind being 270 pounds ripped (OK not ripped but DAMN HARD!)
It's just the look I want and the personal choice I have made. Will it happen? Likely not but I can sure as heck try and have fun in doing so.
Again everyone has their own goals and agendas - if being a pro is one of those goals, then the direction the sport takes at the pro level would be something of concern. For so many of the rest of us, it simply doesn't matter.
But it sure makes for a good discussion - now if we could all get together for bonfire and tilt back some malt beverages then we would really have a good discussion on our hands!!!!!!
Sal
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Post by mrbeefy on May 27, 2007 21:26:04 GMT -5
SAL!
Booya Bro!
I like the way ya think....bring some ladies to that bonfire, and add some Ozzy, ZZ Top, or WHOEVER....and let's get to "discussin'!" ;D
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Post by Sal Paradise on May 27, 2007 23:21:41 GMT -5
Right on Beefy!!!
Just wish it was easier and more possible to get a group like this together.
I can't even begin to imagine the stories that would fly!!!!
Sal
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;D
