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Post by In-Human on Nov 22, 2004 12:32:33 GMT -5
Ok, first, I don't care what any study says regarding protein intake and only what results I have seen in the real world with myself and the hundreds of people that I have worked with...one of them being Sara who posted above (HI SARA!!!!!!!!!). I firmly believe that optimal protein intake for a hardcore bodybuilder is somewhere between 1.5-2 g per lb of bodyweight each day. When I deal with clients that are trying to be as big and lean as possible I usually up their protein, lower their carbs, and raise fats. This almost instantly and invariably changes their body composition for the better...meaning less bodyfat/more muscle mass. Now, their are some people (but they are in the minority) that respond amazingly well to high carb intake, and these people do benefit from lower protein intakes, like 1 to 1.25 g per lb bodyweight. However, in general, the higher protein intakes are where its at for getting bigger and staying leaner year around. I have at times kept my carb intake to 50-100 g per day for months at a time, while bumping my protein as high as 2.5 g per lb of bodyweight, and have maintained a 6-7% bodyfat range while adding 8-10 lbs of muscle during that time. Eat your protein! Damn straight FX, it goes to each person and their goals, sure you can keep someone at 8% BF and get them putting away 500 grams of protein a day and with cardio and carb cut offs at a particular time of day, it can be done, its not easy to do, but is been done. I know for myself I went as high as 650+ grams a day and I put on 20 lbs of muscle in 6 months with DC, and I am 40 years old, I have tried 2 grams per body lb but pushing the envolope at 3.25 grams was the number for me. How do you know when you amino pool is near empty or one of the essentials is not available for uptake when your muscle cells are in need of it, sure a over abundance of anything can cause some trainees to have it stored as adipose tissue, metabolisms vary, to burn 100 gram of protein it takes 25.6 kcals, for 100 grams of carbs or fat it takes only 4-6 kcals to burn it. Protein makes you into a Human Blast Funance, and stoking that furnance every 2.5-3 hours is key to building muscle...
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Post by Liftingchic on Nov 22, 2004 15:33:12 GMT -5
Thanks Bro!!! Yeah, I also think if you are an Endomorphic person, (or someone who is really fat)you should consume more protein so you get the calories needed for growth, but not the carbs that tend to make Endo's fat and lethargic or the fat that goes to the waistline easy for them... Also because protein is itself thermic in its effects in the body. couldn't agree more! because of my lovely family genetics i am a endo. I have seen great results with higher protien little carbs... i have been known to get anywhere from 250-300 grams a day
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Post by str8flexed on Nov 23, 2004 0:53:07 GMT -5
yes lets disregard all scientific research.. hell we really don't know what we are talking about
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Post by youngblood on Nov 23, 2004 9:06:07 GMT -5
I think there is a happy medium that can be struck between the scientific aspect, and the real world aspect.
Bdyfx knows what does and doesn't work for his clients. Str8 has read and what works and what doesn't work, as well as tested it in the field. However, because either of them don't have each others experiance (Bdyfx being a scientist, biochem major like Layne- or Layne trained nearly as long or as many other people like BdyFx), doesn't mean either are right or wrong. From what I've read, and know with the little amount of people I've worked with and myself, I can tell both are correct. Layne, I'm curious though, what's your thoughts on lipoprotein lipayse (hopefully I spelled it correctly)?
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Post by In-Human on Nov 23, 2004 10:18:32 GMT -5
yes lets disregard all scientific research.. hell we really don't know what we are talking about No, studies have its place but so does experience, we do not live in a lab enviroment, does not every study have hypothesis to follow, well the training clients does not, so as YB said neither is a perfect science...
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Post by str8flexed on Nov 23, 2004 10:49:53 GMT -5
the point is with protein intake no study (and there have been many done) have shown that there is any muscle or strength building advantage above 3g/kg (and that study was really really questionable)... all other studies show the max being from 2.2g/kg-2.5g/kg, this is a total of thousands of subjects being monitered with the variables being controlled. Now if people think they are getting more muscle with an even higher protein intake consider this
1) those that simply keep increasing their protein and see better results probably don't account for the fact that they have increased their total calories... thus sparing more calories for muscle buidling
2) just b/c you can't get an extra muscle building effect out of protein doesn't mean you can't have a body composition altering effect, trading out protein for carb on a gram for gram basis will definately keep you leaner, albeit you will need more calories to gain at the same pace since protein utilization is much more energy costly. Since people who do this get leaner, they see this as better results (and i'mnot saying they aren't favorable)
3) as you increase your protein intake your body will increase the levels of enzymes that degrade amino acids and the body will also increase it's nitrogen excretion... so you take in more... but the body compensates by releasing even more.
that being said, I think 1g/lb (2.2g/kg) is plenty, however i still eat about 1.3g/lb and 1.5g/lb when i diet as I believe eating a higher protein diet has other merits to body composition & health than just muscle building. But to suggest an increase in muscle mass purely from increasing protein intake to 2g/lb from 1.5g/lb if calories are held constant....that's REALLY pushing it.
please keep in mind, i'm not some geek who wears a lab coat and never works out. I know a thing or two about getting down and dirty in the trenches.
-Layne
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Post by str8flexed on Nov 23, 2004 10:51:27 GMT -5
Layne, I'm curious though, what's your thoughts on lipoprotein lipayse (hopefully I spelled it correctly)? depends on what context the question is being asked in. I think alot of things about it lol. What in particular are you asking?
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Post by youngblood on Nov 23, 2004 11:06:45 GMT -5
I've heard that LPL is sort of like the "gatekeeper" to a favorable body composition. If you take in too many carbs, LPL will "lock up" the fat cell, and mainly store what you just took in at your last meal (macronutrients) in the fat cells of your body. However, if you take in a smaller amount of carbs, it allows the fat cell to open up and freely burn fat, and give it to the muscle cell to burn. I know this is getting off track since the main idea of the thread is about protein. But I'm attempting to tie it together by saying a higher protein diet is beneficial for you, since with a higher protein diet your carbs are generally lower-with a higher fat intake. So, if your carbs are lower, that would explain the beneficial body composition, because the LPL will allow the muscle cell to burn all energy coming in through food intake, as well as what's being released from the fat cell. Make sense, and have my readings been correct?
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Post by str8flexed on Nov 23, 2004 11:13:16 GMT -5
you are thinking in the right direction but with too narrow a focus. There are literally a thousand different enzymes that one can refer to as "gatekeeper's" in metabolism. Try not to get too focussed on the individual impacts of one enzyme. Try to understand the holistic view of what happens in metabolism in response to different meal compositions.
as far as the other parts of your question...
benefits to extreme high protein, low carb when trying to gain muscle=you can eat more calories and stay leaner
downside=you have to eat ALOT to gain weight... almost to an uncomfortable amount, and it may not be feasable for those with fast metabolisms and slow appetites. It also means more of your protein you take in will be oxidized for energy.
-Layne
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BeeJ
Novice Bodybuilder
Just another white man
Posts: 45
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Post by BeeJ on Nov 23, 2004 12:28:54 GMT -5
I don't know how many times I have seen a thread or discussion about protein intake reaching the same "fork" that this discussion has resulted in.
Let me end this once and for all.
Alot of what st8 is saying, for all intents and purposes, is well established and correct for the majority of BB's out there. In fact, RDA's for protein have recently (in the last few years) been raised for endurance athletes to around 0.5-0.6 g/lb of bodyweight and raised to 0.65-0.8 g/lb for weight training individuals. So what the BB community has known for so long is finally being excepted as the norm for the entire medical establishment. The scientific community also states that the highest usable amount is around 1g/lb of bodyweight as said by str8.
But, the view held by In-Human and bodyfx also has a lot of merit and is what I tend to go by. You just need to take a closer look at things.
First off, there is not a single study that states going above greater than 1 g/lb of bodyweight does any measurable damage or induce severe trauma to the kidneys. The only studies that would indicate such are conducted with populations that already had abnormal kidney function to begin with and obviously cannot be correlated to a normal physiological state.
Secondly, there is nothing better for creating favorable body composition than consuming > 1.5 g/lb of protein in terms of what macronutrients you put in your mouth. NOTHING! A calorie of protein is NOT used the same as a calorie of carbohydrate or a calorie of fat. This is mainly because of the unique N-containing qualities of protein making it an "energy costly" molecule to break down in liver metabolism as compared to carbs and even fat. Also, protein tends to alter hormonal factors to elicit less fat storage as compared to carbs and fat which are "fat happy" in comparison. This is mainly due to insulin which is jacked up with carbs and very low with protein in comparison.
Thirdly, the thermic effect of food (TEF) is by far the greatest for protein. Protein has a roughly 5 times greater TEF than either fat or carbohydrates. So for every 6 calories is takes to process fats for example, it takes 30 calories to process protein. Add this up over the course of 6 or greater meals per day and you have a lot of thermogenic activity that you will miss out on if you are not jacking up protein intake.
Finally, if you overfeed protein so what? Will you piss out a lot of it? Yeah, but so what? You still need protein to build that muscle. Why not have an excess and get the thermogenic and lipolytic qualities associated with it to improve body composition.
Also, who is to say that your body can't up-regulate and be able to handle a higher protein load? To say that your body will always strive toward a homeostatic response the vast majority of the time...but not all the time. Up-regulation of receptors or any number of physiolgoical variables is commonly seen and expected in a number of physiolgoical conditions. The same could be said for those consuming high amounts of protein for years on end. It would make complete sense that they could use more protein than the average individual. Add chronic training into the mix and I think the established 1 g/lb of bodyweight rule could be broken even more.
Also, science never proves anything happens 100% of the time. It just shows or demonstrates something to occur the vast majority of the time. Besides the laws of thermodynamics or other mathematical laws, nothing is always expected in a biological system. Maybe 99.999999% of the time, but not always. This is just sort of a pet peeve of mine that here on boards all the time and it pisses me off. Also, be careful when interpreting research and don't fall into the trap of looking at only abstracts and not mulling over full text articles and data. Not saying anyone has on this board, but it is a common mistake I see over and over again.
A clear example of this, and my last point before eating lunch, is that many of these protein studies show no improvements over 1g/lb of bodyweight, but this is often related to whether or not something was statistically significant. If you look at the urinary output of nitrogen in some of these studies (can you imagine be the lab-rat who had to collect all that piss) you will see that greater protein intake than 1g/lb resulted in much greater protein lost via micturation. However, if you look at net protein gained, which is how much was taken in via how much was lost, you will see that as much as 3-6 grams more/day is retained by those consuming excessive protein. So while much more is lost, you still have more retained in the end. May not be statistically significant, but still can make a world of difference in the real world. I mean, think about how much more protein you could retain in a year if you average 3-6 grams more/day than the guy who is consuming around 1g/day. Don't think that will make a difference? I sure do.
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Post by Tim Wescott on Nov 23, 2004 12:36:35 GMT -5
Great post BeeJ !! Also a very good/interesting thread...I know I`m learning a lot here,or at least doing some thinking for a change!!
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BeeJ
Novice Bodybuilder
Just another white man
Posts: 45
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Post by BeeJ on Nov 23, 2004 12:38:22 GMT -5
Great post BeeJ !! Also a very good/interesting thread...I know I`m learning a lot here,or at least doing some thinking for a change!! I edited it and added some more. I have been meaning to do that for awhile but never got around to doing it. Plus, the environment of this board makes me more comfortable to put my ideas out there. You da man Tim!!!!! ;D
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Post by Tim Wescott on Nov 23, 2004 12:51:04 GMT -5
Glad to hear it bro,make yourself at home here, that`s what the board`s for...and how can I be da` man,when you da` man ? I like the fact that so far on this board,we have a lot of varying ideas and opinions, but no one cry`s like a bit*h if anyone disagrees, and just debates further, without all the BS kiddie flaming, and that`s how I envisioned it...that`s why I invited the best, most knowledgable, and mature members!! I ain`t so tupid after all!!
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Post by In-Human on Nov 23, 2004 12:57:57 GMT -5
sr8flex, Do you think if you were to take in more than 1.5 gram per lb that you may add more muscle to your frame and have you tried it for longer than one month or are you just going by what you learned from studies, trail and error is what got us to where we are today...
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Post by In-Human on Nov 23, 2004 12:59:12 GMT -5
Ski, Where is Merlin when you need him, we need some name calling, let me get him, be right back, lol...
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Post by Tim Wescott on Nov 23, 2004 13:07:43 GMT -5
* loads up his trusty shotgun* ;D Thanks IH...but no thanks bro!!
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BeeJ
Novice Bodybuilder
Just another white man
Posts: 45
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Post by BeeJ on Nov 23, 2004 13:25:11 GMT -5
Glad to hear it bro,make yourself at home here, that`s what the board`s for...and how can I be da` man,when you da` man ? I like the fact that so far on this board,we have a lot of varying ideas and opinions, but no one cry`s like a bi**h if anyone disagrees, and just debates further, without all the BS kiddie flaming, and that`s how I envisioned it...that`s why I invited the best, most knowledgable, and mature members!! I ain`t so tupid after all!! Sounds like a utopia, and hopefully this board comes close to that. ;D The bottomline is you shouldn't get all pissed off and enraged if someone wants to take in 0.5 g of protein per bodyweight less than you. If you have some sound logic and validity to your posts, then I am more than happy to except whatever you want to do. But if you state that my opinion is completely wrong, then you will have a debate on your hands. But even then, I won't drag things out. Differing on a small issue is fine with me.
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Thinkbig
Novice Bodybuilder
Elite Member
Growing!!!
Posts: 133
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Post by Thinkbig on Nov 23, 2004 15:20:20 GMT -5
Who would have thought when I made this thread that so much GREAT info would come outta this thing... I have and continue to learn alot from you guys!
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Post by In-Human on Nov 23, 2004 16:13:08 GMT -5
TB, Thats what is great about a good board, we all learn form each other...
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Post by str8flexed on Nov 24, 2004 10:33:38 GMT -5
the body does upregulate to handle a higher protein load... it increases gluconeogenesis and nitrogen exrcretion. Please read back through my last post and you'll see that I'm not disagreeing with In-Human or BodyFx as much as you think
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