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Post by bodyfx on Nov 24, 2004 11:06:30 GMT -5
Science should never be completely disregarded as it provides a good base to start with when it comes to most things regarding bodybuilding...from supplements (yes, glutamine works, LOL)...to training methodologies (should I do 20 sets or 1 set?)...to dietary intake. However, it all has to be taken with a grain of salt, b/c what takes place in many of these studies are often biased (not always, but often), are not replicable (how many studies have been 100% conflicting), or just do not hold up in the ULTIMATE LAB...THE REAL WORLD.
I have been in this game for almost 20 years, and although my formal education has taught me alot (even split between anatomy, kinesiology, physiology, bio, chem, etc, and psychology), nothing has shown me more than what I have learned studying what happens with MY body and the body's of... at this point, probably over 500 people that I have trained over this course of time.
I have always kept meticulous records of everything that goes on with each of my clients and have experimented with every training, dietary, and supplement strategy that you can think of, and the answer to the protein question has continuously pointed me in one direction...EAT MORE PROTEIN!
Gains in lean body mass are better...body composition is better...recovery is better...strength gains are better with more protein. And this goes for either simply adding more calories from protein into the diet than adding carbs or fats (unless someone is very deficient in fats, in which case adding more fats can have a profound positive hormonal effect) OR if swapping out carb calories for protein calories.
In all but a few cases, the gains in mass, and attached losses in bodyfat, from going from 1 g of protein per lb to 1.5 g of protein per lb and 1.5 g to 2 g (and sometimes a bit higher, but after this I often notice diminsihing returns) has been dramatic to say the least and has proved to me without a shadow of a doubt where protein levels should be for most that are serious about transforming their physiques.
I consider the last 20 years of my life as one HUGE scientific experiment, and the results are unequivocal in my eyes.
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Post by str8flexed on Nov 24, 2004 13:37:01 GMT -5
glutamine does work... for regeneration of enterocytes,enhancing LBM by increasing gut mass in diseased individuals....and helps stabalize glucose levels via gluconeogenesis, and also may give you a pump in high doses due to it's conversion from glutamine to citrulline to arginine in the kidneys.
But if you think it is muscle enhancing above any other amino acid you are fooling yourself. Not only does it not stimulate protein synthesis when orally injected, it is no more anti-catabolic that an equal amount of whole protein. Even though it increases glutathione content in sick people, it may actually reduce glutathione in healthy people.
Everyone seems to have this stigma about science; they prefer "brotelligence". Anecdotal evidence cannot be discounted... but it CERTAINLY cannot be accepted as truth, especially when there is scientific evidence to the contrary as with glutamine. Not to mention there are plenty of people who tell you that they get nothing from glutamine.
-Layne
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Post by In-Human on Nov 24, 2004 13:52:32 GMT -5
Thanx Layne, and FX you are right, most of the problems I come across with clients no mater clean or not it always come down to protein intake for adding muscle, also for cutting BF and holding muscle, I see way to many do the yo-yo syndrome when they come off and their diet does not stay where it was when they were "on". I am not saying I kill everyone with huge amounts I have to work at each one on a very individual basis to see what their needs and goals are going to be. Yes I am going to say I beleive in Glut also, but I never push it on clients unless they are wanting to do it and I have seen a major difference with Glut in pre workout meal for energy during their training period, or course recouperation if they were handed bad genes from mom and pops. I have been in this game for some 25 years and have been doing diets and training programs from the start.
I love all the posts here guys, very very good debate...
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Post by In-Human on Nov 24, 2004 13:55:08 GMT -5
Layne, The "brotelligence", that was perfect, you don't know how much of this I come to when helping people with supper supps and I get this kind of talk handed to me way to much, "they know a guy who does this or that" and I have to come back and say, "are you them, or are you yourself"...
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Post by bodyfx on Nov 24, 2004 15:43:23 GMT -5
glutamine does work... for regeneration of enterocytes,enhancing LBM by increasing gut mass in diseased individuals....and helps stabalize glucose levels via gluconeogenesis, and also may give you a pump in high doses due to it's conversion from glutamine to citrulline to arginine in the kidneys. But if you think it is muscle enhancing above any other amino acid you are fooling yourself. Not only does it not stimulate protein synthesis when orally injected, it is no more anti-catabolic that an equal amount of whole protein. Even though it increases glutathione content in sick people, it may actually reduce glutathione in healthy people. Everyone seems to have this stigma about science; they prefer "brotelligence". Anecdotal evidence cannot be discounted... but it CERTAINLY cannot be accepted as truth, especially when there is scientific evidence to the contrary as with glutamine. Not to mention there are plenty of people who tell you that they get nothing from glutamine. -Layne |
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Post by bodyfx on Nov 24, 2004 15:49:37 GMT -5
glutamine does work... for regeneration of enterocytes,enhancing LBM by increasing gut mass in diseased individuals....and helps stabalize glucose levels via gluconeogenesis, and also may give you a pump in high doses due to it's conversion from glutamine to citrulline to arginine in the kidneys. But if you think it is muscle enhancing above any other amino acid you are fooling yourself. Not only does it not stimulate protein synthesis when orally injected, it is no more anti-catabolic that an equal amount of whole protein. Even though it increases glutathione content in sick people, it may actually reduce glutathione in healthy people. Everyone seems to have this stigma about science; they prefer "brotelligence". Anecdotal evidence cannot be discounted... but it CERTAINLY cannot be accepted as truth, especially when there is scientific evidence to the contrary as with glutamine. Not to mention there are plenty of people who tell you that they get nothing from glutamine. -Layne Yup, many get nothing from glutamine, but some also get nothing from Anadrol. I am not going to get into a debate with you about glutamine as I am quite aware of how valuable a supplement it is and just as aware at how sure you are of yourself that its not. |
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Post by str8flexed on Nov 24, 2004 16:58:22 GMT -5
I have taken it
I have tried it with clients
I have read literally hundreds of scientic papers on the subject.
In my mind it is quite clear
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Post by Tim Wescott on Nov 24, 2004 18:28:53 GMT -5
Just to interject for a second guy`s....sometimes it`s good to agree to disagree,and just do whatever you find works best for you in your particular case...then there is no right or wrong!! That wisdom comes from living on this planet for 49 years so far!!  |
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Post by youngblood on Nov 24, 2004 19:02:24 GMT -5
That wisdom comes from living on this planet for 49 years so far!! <cough> Bull pucky!!!!! <cough> <cough>Bull pucky!!! <cough> 49 years you say?  Alllll righty then...... |
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Post by str8flexed on Nov 24, 2004 23:38:01 GMT -5
Just to interject for a second guy`s....sometimes it`s good to agree to disagree,and just do whatever you find works best for you in your particular case...then there is no right or wrong!! That wisdom comes from living on this planet for 49 years so far!! yea but i'm young and hard-headed ;D |
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Post by Tim Wescott on Nov 24, 2004 23:46:41 GMT -5
Layne,you`re also a good dude,I just hate to see good people,all of whom I respect,argue!! I`m a hard headed guy myself at times though, and stick to my guns also,too bad I`m still old!!  |
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Post by str8flexed on Nov 25, 2004 8:28:05 GMT -5
I thought it was more or less a discussion. I wasn't pissed at anyone, I was just trying to make my point. I apologize if I came off as standoffish
-Layne
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Post by Intensity on Nov 25, 2004 9:49:07 GMT -5
As far as protein intake goes: i take approximatly 250 to 300g in the offseason (i weight 215) and 300 to 350g in contest prep (at 190).
When i eat more that that... i dont see a lot of improvement on my body.
...just my observation...
Mo
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Post by bodyfx on Nov 26, 2004 17:31:54 GMT -5
Just to interject for a second guy`s....sometimes it`s good to agree to disagree,and just do whatever you find works best for you in your particular case...then there is no right or wrong!! That wisdom comes from living on this planet for 49 years so far!! Always sooo diplomatic Tim. I ONLY agree to disagree when I've decided its not worth my time to argue, like in this case. 49 Tim...boy, I would never have guessed you were a day over 48! ;D |
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Post by Tim Wescott on Nov 26, 2004 17:35:13 GMT -5
Thanks a bunch for the kind comments pal !! ;D
Glad you made it back safe and sound bud!!
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Post by bodyfx on Nov 29, 2004 8:53:00 GMT -5
Thanks a bunch for the kind comments pal !! ;D Glad you made it back safe and sound bud!! LOL, thanks my friend...and you KNOW I was just playing...you honestly don't look a day over 47... |
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Post by Troyster on Nov 29, 2004 17:26:02 GMT -5
Though I don't approach it this way, mine works out to about 1.5.
T
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Alllll righty then......
