Losing fat while gaining muscle

[Sal Paradise]

Hey all,
I was just wanting to get a little feedback on your thoughts pertaining to this.

I was in a debate with someone at another board who insisted it was IMPOSSIBLE so I explained it in a very simplisitc although maybe not the optimal way but that it could indeed be done.

This person having felt I was berating her dared me to post that on her "gurus" website.
So I did and after much banter nearly everyone finally came to the conclusion that;
"Its a waste of time becasue the gains are so minimal" and after a bit of name calling etc. I simply stated that I didn't care how minimal the fact is, it is POSSIBLE.

I happen to think with the diet in the right balance it's the best way to do things in the begining stages of a cutting phase - although at that time I'm not looking for maximum muscle gains nor maximum fat loss during such a diet phase.

PLease let me know what you think and I've posted the link to the discussion though you have to log in to view it I think.


Sal

monkeyisland.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=36902

[mrbeefy]

I tend to lean that you cannot do both either. You MAY make a little head-way here and there, but probably not significant. Here are some notes I had from Tom Venuto. They may help.

Frank

Sounds like you're suffering from "flip flop syndrome" which is very common and quite deadly to fat loss and muscle growth goals. "Flip flop" syndrome is when you can't make up your mind whether you want to gain muscle or lose fat so you end up going back and forth between the two, not making any real headway in either direction. Here's the fix:


1. First, reframe your situation and change your attitude.

Instead of being frustrated and confused, how about being "fascinated" and "curious?"

FASCINATION (The "Mr. Spock" attitude)

"Hmmmm... my diet is darn near perfection, been bustin my ass in the gym for months, I'm not getting any fat loss at all and I'm actually losing muscle... fascinating."

CURIOSITY (The "I wonder" attitude)

I wonder what strategy, technique, trick or method I'll use next that will blast me through this plateau and launch me to the next level while increasing my knowledge and intuitive bodily wisdom at the same time?

2. Make a committed decision.

Once you're in the right mindset to tackle this issue in a positive way, then the real answer is simply to make a committed decision.

Committed decisions are when you cross a bridge and burn it behind you. Turning back is not even an option… (because you torched your escape route!) Only way out is through!

Every successful bodybuilder or fitness competitor I know reaches a point at least three to four months out from a show where they make a committed, point of no return decision to do the contest (strict fat loss diet and training). Once that decision is made, these champions NEVER look back.

On the other hand, I know people who say they want to compete for the first time, but they want to "start dieting and see how they look first," then they'll decide for sure. Sure enough, the minute the going gets tough or they think they're losing muscle or not getting lean fast enough, they bail. They're also the ones who have been talking about competing for years, but have never actually done it. Why? They never made a committed decision.

Quit straddling the fence! Don't begin an endeavor with a "maybe" attitude and a big question mark stamped on your forehead!

You have to take a "nothing is stopping me" attitude with a "no-quit clause" built in. If you don't understand and apply the "point of no return," "Committed decision" mindset, you will sabotage yourself forever.

3. Set goals only in terms of the positive.

"I don't want to lose muscle" is a bad goal. Don't give any energy to that idea.

Here's a good goal:

"I am easily maintaining my muscle while I drop my body fat level from 13% to 7% by June 1st to reveal my killer set of six pack of abs"

Always phrase your goals in the positive. Say what you want, not what you want to avoid. You always move in the direction you face.

4. Throw the "T Word" out of your vocabulary and JUST DO IT!

You shouldn't be the least bit surprised that you haven't seen any results yet if you've been "trying" to follow a plan.

Don't "try" to follow the plan, FOLLOW THE PLAN! Don't "try" to do it, DO IT!

Think about it: What is presupposed when you say that nasty "T" word? The word "try" carries with it the assumption that you are going to attempt, but you don't expect to succeed. Trying is no different than expecting failure. You must expect success. You always get what you expect.

5. Choose the goal that YOU want.

I can't choose your goal for you. I have nothing to do with it. Your friends have nothing to do with it. Your family has nothing to do with it. Your training partner has nothing to do with it. Your personal trainer has nothing to do with it.

Only YOU can decide. Don't ask for someone else's opinion. The right goal to choose is the one YOU want the most.

What do YOU really, really, really want? Decide, commit, then go after it with ferocious resolve and if anyone tells you can't or shouldn't do it, tell them to stick their opinion where the sun don't shine!

6. Get total clarity about your goal

It's not enough to make a committed decision or to set a goal. You must decide EXACTLY where you want to go and then zero in on it the way a guided missile locks onto its target. Go straight for the bullseye, not just in a general direction.

It's not enough to say, "My goal is to go West." You need clarity. Most of us simply think of having goals, but I like adding the term, "clarity" because vague goals can be your downfall.

"I want to lose weight" and "I want to gain muscle and lose fat" are certainly goals, but they're poor goals because they lack clarity. If you lack clarity of purpose, you will always be a victim of "flip flop syndrome."

Tips for Body Composition Goals

The decision about where you want to go next is up to you, but I will offer three suggestions for making intelligent decisions about body composition goals:

1) You didn't mention your body fat percentage, but you did say you are "lean." Get your body fat measured. If you are above average in body fat, then I almost always recommend that you lose the fat and get yourself down to at least an "average" or better body fat level first. Then, you simply pick whatever is most important to you: (A) You can hold your current level of body fat and work on gaining lean body mass, or (B) you can work on getting even leaner (going from "average" to "good" or "good" to "great").

2) Many people go for muscle growth during the winter season (conveniently, when they will be covered up most of the time), then as warm weather approaches they shift into fat loss (swimsuit time!) That's not a bad plan. Most people are more motivated to go from "good" to "great" in time for summer, and training in cycles and pushing to a peak at least once a year is a smart strategy, psychologically and physiologically.

3) Staggering or rotating your caloric intake is a great way to lose fat while maintaining your lean body mass. Stay focused on fat loss, just increase your calories every few days to your maintenance level or just slightly above maintenance. Don't stay on low calories all the time. For muscle growth without fat accumulation, reduce your calories at regular intervals from surplus level to maintenance or slightly below maintenance.

I could go into a much more detailed discussion of metabolism, hormonal control, macronutrient manipulation and (especially) staggering caloric intake to help you maintain your lean mass while you drop fat or maintain a low body fat while you gain muscle…

However, the most common cause of "flip flop syndrome," frustration and discouragement is not nutrition or training related, it's the lack of proper goals, attitude and mental approach. My suggestions aren't just semantics or positive thinking. Your mind works in amazing ways. Work with it, not against it.

[RUBICON19]

You can def do both! I have seen plenty do it with my own eyes! Real life results!

[Sal Paradise]

Jan 29, 2009 15:34:21 GMT -5 RUBICON19 said:

You can def do both! I have seen plenty do it with my own eyes! Real life results!

I agree 1000% and I'm doing it now.
I would even be willing to go through whatever bf test someone would want to pay for to show and increase in lean muscle while decreasing bf.
Attcking the weights from a different persepctive can boost muscle growth in an area that was previously untouched.
that equals muscle growth - all other areas being equal.
But instead of eating 1500 calorie surplus - way more than optimal one simply drops that back to 500 calorie suplus.
Still allowing extra cals to get the new muscle growth and dropping BF from the extra they accumulated form eating 1500 extra for X period of time.

The system doesn't equall as great of muscle gains as a dedicated bulk - OK. I'll agree with that but that's not the question.

It' simply can it be done and real world experience says YES.
You can drop body fat and gain muscle.
Now this isn't going to happen below a certain level of BF % - saying that would be silly.
But I would be willing to bet a person could go from 30% to 35% ans gain some muscle while doing so.

[fit]

Jan 29, 2009 15:34:21 GMT -5 RUBICON19 said:

You can def do both! I have seen plenty do it with my own eyes! Real life results!

Ditto- me too. I've been able to add lean mass while leaning out just in the past year. Yes, slower, but it can be done.

[mrbeefy]

I do agree that it is "possible". I've done it myself. I had Bod Pod's done to measure my lean muscle mass and bf to the exact gram, and over a period of time, it did work.

Although personally, It wasn't an optimum way of training for me.
Anything you can do to switch things up to grow and stay healthy..is a good thing!

One quote:
"An eagle who chases two rabbits, will have no dinner".

[masterschamp]

Jeremy,
Based on my own experiences, I DO think it is possible. I have read research that demonstrated that muscle growth can take place on a calorie restricted diet, for short periods of time, if the stimulus is sufficient.
An indicator that this is taking place for me is that my poundages will continue to increase even as I am dieting. ANY muscle growth for those of us who have been training for a long time is significant. Put another way.. what sense would it make for me, at my age and level of experience to gain an additonal 50-60 pounds in the off season.....how much of that is truly going to be muscle? And if I had to drop ALOT of weight to get into stage condition, then , yes,...I probably would have to do SO much cardio and restrict my diet so drastically that I couldn't train with enough intensity to stimulate any real growth.
The farther advanced you are, the slower the gains come,but when you have reached a certain point developmentally, an increase of even 1% can have a HUGE impact on stage. I truly feel you can get that 1-2% on a calorie resticted diet, if the protein is high and you are training with maximum intensity.

[Sal Paradise]

Thanks everyone.
I know it works - heck I'm doing it now.
I could take a waste, arm, leg and BF% measurement, and come back in a month of proper dieting and training and bet most everything I own that arm and leg would increase (gain of muscle) and the other two would decrease.

All lof of this from simply taking in more protein and being more regiemented while we're dieting because we put more effort into it when we are preppiung for a show instead of actually having a life in the off-season.

And I don't think it's the best way to obtain maximum amount of muscle but definitely possible.

[mrbeefy]

MC...
I agree wtih you buddy. I was doing just what you were saying and was making some really good progress, but once I hit 50, the gains come slow!

Since I'm considering the return to BB from PL, I went back and looked at all my old notes and pics from 2004 forward. I made a lot of stupid mistakes, and did make a lot of progress too. My last NABBA show I did (where I met Tim and joined this board!) my pics are pretty decent. I was SOOOOOOOOOOO close to hitting it right on. A little tighter, and a little more vascularity would have tweaked me just right. Now, in retrospect (and at least 30 lbs. heavier than that show), I kinda of wish I would have stayed on that path, becuase I was SOOOOOO close!

Now it will take me 9 months to a year to get back close to that again. The downside (as you said) is how much of that is NOT muscle (I didn't say fat!). The interesting part (Upside) will be that, after almost 2 years of powerlifitng (Deads, squat, bench), how much muscle mass have I gained and how will it manifest itself once I start to cut.

Sorry for the sdie-track!

I guess the point would be to keep at it, whatever you're doing. If it works for you, go for it! If it doesn't. keep tweaking it until you find what does. Clean diet, mind-muscle connection on your WO's, etc. Keep on rollin' !

[vindog]

A Lot of My Clients Did Lose a Considerable amount of Bodyfat while gaining Muscle.A lot ,however is contingent on % of bodyfat and fitness level at beginning.

[youngblood]

Jan 29, 2009 15:34:21 GMT -5 RUBICON19 said:

You can def do both! I have seen plenty do it with my own eyes! Real life results!

Yes, been there done that. I can't say I've seen people do it, since I don't prep people nor do I watch them that closely in the gym.
But I've done it myself.

As well, Charles Poliquin states it's possible and he gets his guys to do it all the time. As most of you know, I'll believe anything CP says over anyone else.