Thinkbig
Novice Bodybuilder
Elite Member
Growing!!!
Posts: 133
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Post by Thinkbig on Sept 25, 2004 11:51:21 GMT -5
Hey bro's, I have a question for the few of us that compete. I have never been below about 8% bodyfat and am currently researching the best methods for EXTREMELY LOW bodyfat, so that after my lean bulker, I can start to dial it in.
So my question is, What is the best approach you all have found for fat loss(Be specific. Did you go Keto. CKD, Medium Carbs, Low-Fat etc.)
What do you feel gave you your quickest results? example(got you losing bodyfat stores quickly)
What do you feel gave the absolute best results? example(Most muscle mass retained and fat lost)
Just wanting the different feed back, to help me in my approach.
p.s.Mainly interested in the different approaches to fat loss not basic lowering calories babble, as I am aware of how to induce weight loss!
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Post by Tim Wescott on Sept 25, 2004 12:58:45 GMT -5
I cycle carbs throughout the diet, and keep protein high,with moderate carbs, and low fat.
I also do a lot of HIIT cardio, as well as walking on an inclined treadmill.
For my next contests, I am going to start out doing my usual cardio, and cut it back a bit as I get closer to the show.
This way I think I can hold on to more size, and dietary adjustments will be taken a bit more severely if needed.
That is of course depending on how I`m looking at the time. I`ll continue cardio if I`m doing good.
I hold most of my size as a rule, but I think at times I`ve lost a bit on muscle by doing so much cardio.
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Thinkbig
Novice Bodybuilder
Elite Member
Growing!!!
Posts: 133
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Post by Thinkbig on Sept 25, 2004 14:15:54 GMT -5
Cool Tim, that sounds like a very sound approach!
Thanks for helping!
Does anyone else use a different approach, how about you Troyster?
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Post by Maximum6 on Sept 25, 2004 15:35:38 GMT -5
I think carb cycling is the best..especially when combined with HIIT. Fat would be low generally. But for going LOW CARB..or 0 CARB fat might be considered...
But overall..Reduction in calories is always the best way to go. Just go below 300 cals under maintainance...and as weeks go by..lower it more by 200cals. I would not lower more than 500cals below maintainance. The cals that are lowered should be FAT ...and carbs. I think lowering more than 500cals below maintainance would make you lose muscle.
HIIT is like an exercise that i think targets more of the fat than muscle....but it gives you a heart attack. If you don't feel that way..you're probably not doing HIIT correctly.. ;D
Thats my thought about going super low bodyfat. I think my bodyfat right now is like at 10.9%...i don't know..possibly 12% ;D
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Thinkbig
Novice Bodybuilder
Elite Member
Growing!!!
Posts: 133
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Post by Thinkbig on Sept 26, 2004 13:56:55 GMT -5
Just bumping for some other responses!!!
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Post by Tim Wescott on Sept 26, 2004 21:38:04 GMT -5
Bumping it again.
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lionel
Novice Bodybuilder
Posts: 58
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Post by lionel on Sept 27, 2004 2:06:07 GMT -5
Alright, answering your request for a bump here!
Firstly, what kinda eater/dieter are you thinkbig? Would you binge? Are you one that'll succumb to cravings? Are you a hardcore dieter who never cheats unless its a cheat day? With carb cycling, i feel its real easy to stick to with carb filled days quite frequent on it. It produces results too. But there is a tendency for choosing wrong carb choices throughout the day that you may think are OK but are in fact detrimental to your diet. I've been carb cycling before but am quite sensitive to carbs.. being at quite a high bf level, i didn't wanna take the risk. Carb cycling also keeps you full throughout the day with the correct food choices.
I'm currently on a ckd now.. trying out after being on a low carb low fat high pro cycle.. fat loss kinda stagnated with those even with increased cardio and having a caloric deficit. Will update you on my ckd but everything seems to be going a ok. Its quite tough initially cos of the absence of carbs(i'm a sucker for anything sweet!) I'd go for this or a tkd over a standard kd unless you're desperate.. seems like you're a veteren.. so i assume with proper planning, a tkd, ckd or a carb cycling diet would do fine. Really depends on what kinda foods you wanna eat or are sensitive to.
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Post by Troyster on Sept 27, 2004 11:09:50 GMT -5
I have a much different approach (it's not my invention, it's what I was taught by my trainers). It's a bit more complicated than this, but it basically goes as follows:
This is a summary and I'm not going to get into the "why" as I'm not interested in a debate on it... it's what I do, as asked. I'm not a dick but there is so much to it that semantical discussions would take forever.
Time is typically 20 weeks (at worst) for women and 16 for men.
The diet is based on simple, whole foods and NO SUGAR (and I mean PERIOD so that means no condiments, etc.). No fruit, 1 cup skim max, vegatable sugars are fine (i.e. corn is FINE, carrots are fine, etc.), no added fat except Pam for cooking, and no red meat. So that = chicken, fish, turkey and shrimp (though, shrimp not too often due to very high sodium content).
Basically, we obtain a starting point (no time in this thread to get into "how") and begin at %50 cals from protein (and natural fats) and %50 from carbs (carbs being: vegetables, rice, potatoes, yams, oats, puffed wheat -- could be all rice or all veggies, doesn't matter but I tend to do the %50 as 1/2 rice or potato and 1/2 veggies... this ensures proper vitamin intake). Starting at 30 - 45 mins of cardio/day, adjustments in cals are made to reach the rate of loss of 2 lbs/week. Adjustments are made to keep the rate as good as possible. We are, however, working toward a "projected" weight (this is often based on a fat test) at the end of the diet. Thus, the rate may be MUCH LESS (i.e. 20 weeks at 2lbs loss/week = 40 lbs, PLUS water drop... could be around 50 lbs. If the person only needs to get around 20 lb loss INCLUDING water, the ratio will be adjusted accordingly).
We still keep the diet at 16 weeks (occasionally, some guys are 14 but... they didn't do a good offseason if they're THAT lean). The longer you're lean and "tight", the better you'll look onstage once you "starch up" (see below).
The above is done for the first half of the diet. FYI, for me this spring, that was roughly 3,500 calories which is roughly 2 lbs chicken breasts/day and a couple cups of rice with veggies (eggwhites, oats and puffed wheat for breakfast).
For the second half of the diet, we do a "STARCH DOWN" -- not a "carb-down" although the effect is similar.
This is done as follows... the calorie count DOESN'T CHANGE but the food does... ALL STARCH IS DROPPED and replaced with fiberous veggies only... so for me that was 1,750 calories/DAY of grilled onions, mushrooms, peppers, zucchini. However, lots of guys do all carrots or California mix (broccoli, cauliflower, carrots). To give you a perspective of how much veggies that is per day, that's about 3.5 four lb bags of frozen cal-mix/ day!!! BTW, that also means no more corn/peas at this point as they're loaded with starch.
THERE ARE STILL CARBS IN VEGGIES!!! Though one's brain doesn't utilize them the same (i.e. you feel dumb and lethargic just like low-carbing -- but you aren't low-carbing). Most people eat so few veggies that they really don't impact calories... but at this volume THEY DO.
Now, I have to break in here and point this out cause this is incredibly fascinating... so I'm eating the same calories EXACTLY, yet there is a sudden and drastic change in appearrance. This is important cause it clearly shows that WHAT you eat makes the difference, not just the amount of calories... NOTHING MAKES THAT NOTION SINK IN LIKE RUNNING THIS DIET...
OK, back to it. That's it, it's pretty simple. Ten days out we start adding starches back in (pretty much potatoes only -- no rice!!!!!). Water manipulation is done and that's unique/specific to each person.
Starch is what shuttles/holds glycogen in the muscles... run the fibers and you DRAIN OUT. You become VERY FLAT -- it's EXTREME on this diet... that's where most people fail using this approach... you SHRINK A LOT. It's psychologically damaging and tough to deal with until you've actually completed the process... then you understand it and know what to expect. When you do the "starch-up" your muscles literally increase by roughly 1/3 (from their long-term depleted state). So your skin has receded back and "vacuumed in" over a long period of time... when you starch-up the muscles stretch back out against the skin and you're F'n SHREDDED.
This is a very different approach from those who fat load/calorie load.
Couple points here (most common complaints/questions): 1) We add no salt the entire diet. Many say this is salt restriction but it's not (though we actually do so during water drop). If you enter that much chicken into Fitday, you'll discover that there's 10 TIMES the suggested sodium intake for the day (and we haven't counted the very sodium-laden eggwhites yet). Note that sodium has only a suggested limit and not an RDA as there technically is NO RDA for sodium.
2) People say there's not enough fat... again when you punch that chicken into Fitday, you'll discover that although the pkg. tells you there's less than %2 fat in chicken breasts, the fact is chicken breasts are about %22 fat. Way more than the RDA -- and plenty enough fat (with considerable EFAs).
3) People say there's a lack of vitamins. You'll find, if you punch it all into Fiday, that also us UNTRUE. However, I feel that with all the workouts and all the cardio, a person needs extra so I recommend supplementing with a basic multi-vitamin (whatever one you like). For women especially, I recommend a calcium/magnesium supplement and if you tend to cramp (offseason) you'll find that you're really working out your body's minerals and you'll cramp a lot more... triple, quitiple on the cal/mag it will really help.
4) Muscle will be lost -- actually, I tend to increase my lean muscle mass while dieting. However that does NOT impact or change the diet. It just means that I reach that lean state sooner and am thus at my leanest for longer... once you reach that point, if it's early, we adjust cals to hold that weight. As per the fat test (calipers, machine, float test, whatever you have available), very little muscle is lost, presuming you're eating all the calories and the ratios required.
That's it in a nutshell...
I'll be happy to answer any questions, but like I said, I don't have a lot of time to waste arguing over things like: more fat or more sodium or calories of veggies don't count, starch isn't relevant, etc.-- this is a system that was developed over time and is based on RESULT as opposed to those who theorize and implement and adjust, this was developed by a team that has been in the business of dieting people for many years and have studied the result/effect of certain techniques.
One last point I'd like to make is that no matter what system you use for a contest diet... that process is a step-by-step system... so if you do only part of step one and all of step three and none of step five... it's not going to work -- and if you approach a diet that way... don't blame the diet. All contest diets work on a systematic approach with a variance at the water drop/"carb-up" stage. But each part of the diet is based on the previous part having been completed...
The system is utilized by a large contingent of bodybuilders, fitness/physique competitors here in Canada. Among the group who follow this approach are several pros (four from my province) and competitors from their first show to the national level. Also, a massive amount of people simply wanting to lose weight are put on this diet (though non-competitors are not nearly as extreme).
Some call it "old school". Everyone's heard of "fiber dieting"... I've utilized it over the last three years.
T
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Post by Tim Wescott on Sept 27, 2004 12:47:10 GMT -5
Troy,That diet protocol is very interesting,and I agree with you about the sodium/fat thing. We get plenty just from easting our regular bodybuilding foods.
Good stuff bro,I may have to pick your brain come this years contest prep.
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Post by Troyster on Sept 27, 2004 14:36:48 GMT -5
Sounds great Tim!
T
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Thinkbig
Novice Bodybuilder
Elite Member
Growing!!!
Posts: 133
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Post by Thinkbig on Sept 27, 2004 14:58:24 GMT -5
Awesome Bro!!!
I respect Yours(Troyster) and Tims opinions GREATLY and appreciate your in depth response to my questions guys! TY both!
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Post by Maximum6 on Sept 27, 2004 16:40:09 GMT -5
Yep..i had the experience of eating POUNDS of veggies in one day. Wasn't pleasant. But i'm wondering..when you say no sugar...do you count Tomatoes as having the sugar you don't want in the diet? Though tomatoes are fruit...the bodybuilding grocery list ...lists it as vegetable.
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Post by Troyster on Sept 27, 2004 16:45:28 GMT -5
Tomatoes, in this case, are considered a vegetable. T
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Post by Maximum6 on Sept 27, 2004 16:49:58 GMT -5
Troy...like i said..i've experienced eating POUNDS of veggies the whole day...and only 1/2cup of oats in the morning..when i was CUTTING.
Well..i learned my lesson..and i can tell you it was in no way healthy for me at all. I mean mentally not physically.
I was wondering..if i was to cut when i reach my desired weight....would you suggest to try and Lower carbs..and up protein? or do you suggest lowering cals 200-500below maintainance.
after all Fat loss is cals in...cals out..
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Post by Troyster on Sept 27, 2004 16:54:16 GMT -5
I think I've outlined it very clearly... I've also made very specific reference to the fact that it's MORE than just calories. Further, I've outlined the breakdown of vitmains and minerals and not one RDA is lacking.
As for competitors, if anyone EVER told you that competition was "healthy" they lied to you.
T
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Post by Troyster on Sept 29, 2004 11:33:34 GMT -5
Remember folks, the topic is COMPETITION dieting which is VERY EXTREME compared to just leaning out. There's much more to getting to %2 fat and below than just dropping a few pounds. There is a very detailed science to it and it involves water manipulation and mineral manipulation and it plain-and-simple is NOT NATURAL to be at that level of fat. It's unhealthy and it's something that competitors have chosen to "risk" in order to compete.
The "stage" level is very far beyond the "beach" level (if you know what I mean). Though similar techniques can be applied to a less extreme (and more healthy) level to get very lean and look awesome.
It is, and will always be, my contention that if you're not going to compete, there is absolutely no way you need to perform a "contest diet". It won't improve your appearance any unless you follow through the entire proecess which is pointlessly unhealthy.
However, as I alluded to earlier, you can employ some of the same techniques to get plenty lean and ripped.
T
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Post by J65 on Sept 29, 2004 12:13:58 GMT -5
The diet is based on simple, whole foods and NO SUGAR (and I mean PERIOD so that means no condiments, etc.).(Troyster)
What no ketchup? ;D
Just kidding. ;D
In all seriousness, thank you for your lengthy and sincere post about serious contest dieting. I surmise it took a lot of time and effort for you to compose.
Have no doubt, your advice is much appreciated and will be referenced by many in the future, IMO.
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Post by Troyster on Sept 29, 2004 13:18:27 GMT -5
Thanks bro. LOL I love ketchup... just means I have to be creative. I make my own from no-sodium tomato paste, vinegar and sugar twin... not the best tasting, but when you become "desperate" ;D it tastes like heaven, T
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lionel
Novice Bodybuilder
Posts: 58
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Post by lionel on Oct 25, 2004 6:09:02 GMT -5
Question for you troy.. bout your diet. How often do you do cardio?
What are your lifting days?
How would you cahnge if someone just wants to lean down on this diet and not prepping for a contest..?
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Post by Troyster on Oct 25, 2004 17:26:52 GMT -5
A person could apply a very similar approach, simply fewer calories total, to lose to a VERY lean level. The second half of my diet for contest is a switch to all carbs coming from fiberous vegetables... that's something you would NOT have to do if you weren't prepping for a contest. However, sticking to the diet (i.e. being strict) is still crucial. I would adjust until I found my maintenance level, then pull out 100 - 150 calories (yup, that's all), 2/3 from carb cals and 1/3 from protein. Give it a week, watch the scale. Continue to adjust accordingly until your loss is within 2 lbs/week. Ensure, of course, the protein/carb ratios (just by counting cals) are the same, but scaled to your rate. My lifting days (bulking or cutting) are usually the same: - Monday, chest - Tuesday, back - Wednesday, off - Thursday, arms - Friday, shoulders/calves - Saturday, arms - Sunday, off Offseason, if I need another day or even two, I take it. I always train hard and HEAVY. I do prefer, though, to have my leg days land on the weekend as I find it tough to get that workout in on a typical worknight. The gym is sooooo busy and it's my longest workout. For cardio: offseason I do about 20 minutes three times/week. Onseason varies. This last year, I was doing 45 minutes 5 times/week at first. By about mid-diet I was doing NONE and still hiting my rate just right (I have this theory that a person's body "learns" what it's supposed to do if you keep dieting down year-after-year)... LOL, I felt so guilty, I was throwing in a 15-20 minute session a couple times per week just for posterity (ended up having to increase my calories too)... Hope this helps Troy
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