BeeJ
Novice Bodybuilder
Just another white man
Posts: 45
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Post by BeeJ on Dec 1, 2004 18:36:31 GMT -5
I beleive that It can and wil be benericial in some instances... if you read my article you will see that I list many ways in which it could benefit someone, but only when you are not ingesting the corresponding amount of protein needed to fuel more tissue repair. That's just it. If you are in a normal physiological state or even chronically weight trained, you are not going to reach conditions in wasting patients such as those ravaged by HIV. You could be the most overtrained individual to ever step foot on the is planet and you wouldn't come close to a pathological state like that.
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Post by Liftingchic on Dec 1, 2004 18:39:38 GMT -5
I use Gluamine twice a day.. and won't want it any other way.. I like it cause i can notice a difference in the soreness after workouts and i feel i get a better pump in my muscles with it..
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Post by str8flexed on Dec 1, 2004 18:39:43 GMT -5
That's just it. If you are in a normal physiological state or even chronically weight trained, you are not going to reach conditions in wasting patients such as those ravaged by HIV. You could be the most overtrained individual to ever step foot on the is planet and you wouldn't come close to a pathological state like that. VERY true
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BeeJ
Novice Bodybuilder
Just another white man
Posts: 45
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Post by BeeJ on Dec 1, 2004 18:52:28 GMT -5
I've stated my case, I am not going to debate this anymore. I respect the members on this board to much to get into anything else. If you feel it works then more power to you. I'm just stating that if I had to go in front of an expert panel and state my findings off of scientific research (a ton of it I might add, glutamine has a mountain of research behind it) the report I have given here would be what science has told us thus far. Also, please be cautious in disregarding scientific research. It's what is working to cure every conceivable disease known to man. The same process used to evaluate glutamine is the same process used to evaluate any other possible therapeutic. Please show it more respect than simply saying, "Well I don't care what science says, it works for me!" Bee Pollen works for some people but I am sure as sh*t not taking it. The scientific process isn't perfect initially, but give it enough time and elaborative research (such as the case in glutamine) and it will be accurate 99.9% of the time.
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Post by Tim Wescott on Dec 1, 2004 18:58:49 GMT -5
This has been a great thread, with some great info, I certainly had no clue about,but as usual,I would just like to add, that if you feel it`s beneficial for your case,then go ahead and use it by all means ,and if you don`t agree ,simply don`t buy it. Thanks to everyone involved here, for keeping this debate civil, and not going the route of some of other boards...I appreciate it!!
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Post by Tim Wescott on Dec 1, 2004 19:31:09 GMT -5
I hope my last post didn`t sound too fruity, but as we all post on various boards,we know how threads like this, with varying opinions, can eaily turn into flamefests,name calling,bashing,and other kiddie sh*te, where no one learns anything,and I for one got a lot out of this thread because of just that..........no hi-jacking, and bashing=more knowledge shared,and more knowledge is a good thing in this game as every little bit helps!!
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BeeJ
Novice Bodybuilder
Just another white man
Posts: 45
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Post by BeeJ on Dec 1, 2004 20:24:51 GMT -5
I get what you mean Tim, and believe me, if it would have been on another board I would have been more persistant and probably more of an ass because I can be like that sometimes. WOTW is different because I respect these members and that means I show them respect by agreeing to disagree on this issue. Group hug everyone. :Double Puke: ;D
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Post by Tim Wescott on Dec 1, 2004 20:31:02 GMT -5
BeeJ,that`s why I BEGGED ,I mean invited you and a lot of the others here in the first place bro...................RESPECT !! Take a look at the members in just this thread alone,BIG NAMES THAT I DEFINATELY RESPECT , and while opinions may have varied from one extreme to the other, everybody was cool as hell. For a small board,I think the members here are some of the most respected on the web,and I`m lucky and proud to think that they just might respect me enough to have joined up. Another cornball speech by yours truly but at my age I can do that...............plus it`s from the heart!
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BeeJ
Novice Bodybuilder
Just another white man
Posts: 45
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Post by BeeJ on Dec 1, 2004 20:42:12 GMT -5
BeeJ,that`s why I BEGGED ,I mean invited you and a lot of the others here in the first place bro...................RESPECT !! Take a look at the members in just this thread alone,BIG NAMES THAT I DEFINATELY RESPECT , and while opinions may have varied from one extreme to the other, everybody was cool as hell. For a small board,I think the members here are some of the most respected on the web,and I`m lucky and proud to think that they just might respect me enough to have joined up. Another cornball speech by yours truly but at my age I can do that...............plus it`s from the heart! :Not Worthy: No matter you strive for in the life the greatest thing you can be is a good person and you are that Tim. Also, Ironbull wants to join up as well so should I have him PM you? ;D
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Post by Tim Wescott on Dec 1, 2004 20:54:12 GMT -5
If Iron Bullhead were here,he`d be gonzo in a heartbeat!! Different board, with different terms of service violation restrictions, but his opinions on anything can`t match the opinions of anyone in this thread. As a matter of fact,if you look up his posts,the only good thing he ever contributes to Mayhem is nice shot`s of hot chicks!! Otherwise it`s Federov will put all American pros in a "pose of cancer" !! ;D
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Post by In-Human on Dec 1, 2004 21:05:52 GMT -5
Very nice thread you guys, if I may add something here to what Ken had said and what Layne brought up, oh and BeeJ, I understand that we always have to take into account for each persons diet, metabolism, genetics in recovery ability, how active their life style is, water intake, these all need to be taken into account on variuos different people training in different ways. I just can't beleive for me that science will be 99.9% right most of the time, how many drugs or supplements have you seen pass the FDA and then years later recalled due to bad side affects, not on all but a few people have these problems. I think the studies always have some merit, but is there not always some underlying hypothesis that is needed for the final outcome on any scientific study instead of just using it on so many weight lifting individuals and see exactly what happens to them on a day to day basis as they go throughout there life. I am sorry if I keep going back to experience and no I do not mean experience out weighs science, but you can't just go by one and disreguard the other...
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BeeJ
Novice Bodybuilder
Just another white man
Posts: 45
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Post by BeeJ on Dec 1, 2004 21:20:04 GMT -5
Very nice thread you guys, if I may add something here to what Ken had said and what Layne brought up, oh and BeeJ, I understand that we always have to take into account for each persons diet, metabolism, genetics in recovery ability, how active their life style is, water intake, these all need to be taken into account on variuos different people training in different ways. I just can't beleive for me that science will be 99.9% right most of the time, how many drugs or supplements have you seen pass the FDA and then years later recalled due to bad side affects, not on all but a few people have these problems. I think the studies always have some merit, but is there not always some underlying hypothesis that is needed for the final outcome on any scientific study instead of just using it on so many weight lifting individuals and see exactly what happens to them on a day to day basis as they go throughout there life. I am sorry if I keep going back to experience and no I do not mean experience out weighs science, but you can't just go by one and disreguard the other... Experience counts for a lot in my book In-Human. I've worked in labs and have done research on many things including drugs and supplements. To hear an advisor of mine call me "Thickneck" and to hear him say my kidney's were going to explode every time I downed a protein shake always pissed me off. You know why, because the dude was freaking stick and although he did know alot about weight training his PhD didn't make him more RIGHT than anybody on this board. He was the classic "all science guy" and I always took his reccomendations with a grain of salt so to speak. The thing with research and scientific studies is that initially you have to take caution with everything. Glutamine showed a lot of promise initially and in certain physiological states that you could deduce would make it work great for BB's. But as time went on and more studies were done, it just seemed like glutamine's merit began to dimish more and more. If somebody wants to use glutamine I am not going to tell them that it is worthless beyond a shadow of doubt. I just think that on the ladder of important supplements it is a lower rung and not the staple that everyone makes it out to be due to more and more research and my own personal stint with the supplement doing nothing for myself or at least not enought that I could truly notice compared to other things I have done with diet and supplementation. sh*t though, if it works for you and your trainees then go for it! I would much rather listen to an experienced guy like yourself about training and supplementation who is a friggin beast and battle tested then my old advisor any day of the week.
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Post by In-Human on Dec 1, 2004 23:21:31 GMT -5
BeeJ, LOL, very good post, its funny how I can have guys who are a buck 50 come up to me and tell me that I need to stop eating protein to, I do not get mad I just laugh and go on with my food and shake.
I understand completely where you are coming from and to tell you the truth I would love to sit and talk with that guy, he must be a walking encyclopedia of knowledge, hell I know I am old but I learn new things every day, whether from the boards, something I read or from one of my own trainees, I think thats why I love this sport, hobby or way of life, is that you keep learning and it never stops, at least for me it does not...
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Post by str8flexed on Dec 2, 2004 7:54:23 GMT -5
Very nice thread you guys, if I may add something here to what Ken had said and what Layne brought up, oh and BeeJ, I understand that we always have to take into account for each persons diet, metabolism, genetics in recovery ability, how active their life style is, water intake, these all need to be taken into account on variuos different people training in different ways. I just can't beleive for me that science will be 99.9% right most of the time, how many drugs or supplements have you seen pass the FDA and then years later recalled due to bad side affects, not on all but a few people have these problems. I think the studies always have some merit, but is there not always some underlying hypothesis that is needed for the final outcome on any scientific study instead of just using it on so many weight lifting individuals and see exactly what happens to them on a day to day basis as they go throughout there life. I am sorry if I keep going back to experience and no I do not mean experience out weighs science, but you can't just go by one and disreguard the other... Most people don't like to believe in science, I think it scares them or something My problem with glutamine isn't that it is mostly ineffective... MANY supplements are ineffective... what bothers me is that the magazines and supplement retailers LIE, yes they flat out lie, and at the very least misconstrue and twist data around to make glutamine to sound like some miracle supplement, so people experience a very strong placebo effect... they believe it should work becuase every mag you pick up... every supplement compnay says it will. Think about it. Glutamine isn't some specialty supp that only one or 2 companies sell. EVERYONE SELLS IT! These are the same people that put food on the muscle magazine's plate so to speak. Do you think any muscle mag would allow a person to write something bad about glutamine when all of the companies that pay them to put ads in their magazines sell it? Hell no.
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Post by Tim Wescott on Dec 2, 2004 8:19:32 GMT -5
Most people don't like to believe in science, I think it scares them or something My problem with glutamine isn't that it is mostly ineffective... MANY supplements are ineffective... what bothers me is that the magazines and supplement retailers LIE, yes they flat out lie, and at the very least misconstrue and twist data around to make glutamine to sound like some miracle supplement, so people experience a very strong placebo effect... they believe it should work becuase every mag you pick up... every supplement compnay says it will. Think about it. Glutamine isn't some specialty supp that only one or 2 companies sell. EVERYONE SELLS IT! These are the same people that put food on the muscle magazine's plate so to speak. Do you think any muscle mag would allow a person to write something bad about glutamine when all of the companies that pay them to put ads in their magazines sell it? Hell no. I agree with Layne on this one!! Remember how every month in the mags they would tout a new supplelement as the next big thing that would catapult your gains through the roof? Whatever happened to the folllowing "magic bullets": OKG Boron Vanadyl Sulfate Chromium Picolinate Ribose ALA Colostrum DHEA Liquid Creatine And many more, that were hyped up bigtime,I might be opening a whole new can of worms with this post, as I`m sure some people here will support some of the above mentioned supps, but my point is that some are/were a lot of hype, and it`s up to the individuals personal testing on himself, to decide just which ones may be effective.......... or just a money making scam for the mags, and the manufacturers that make them !!
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Post by Tim Wescott on Dec 2, 2004 8:23:10 GMT -5
I might add, that I am not big on too many supplements personally, so I take only a handful at best, and rely mostly on food as we all do.
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Post by bodyfx on Dec 2, 2004 8:37:24 GMT -5
What do you mean by better results? What did you gain from it? -recovery from workouts is quicker and more efficient...over time this = more muscle -immune system functions better...I did a test where I took no glutamine one year from October through March (which from experience is the period of time when I would get hit with the most colds, or flu, or any upper respiratory illnesses), and the result was that illness caused me to miss 12 of 96 scheduled workouts during that time. The following year I took 30 supplemental grams of glutamine peptides every day without fail during the same period, and I missed 1 scheduled workout during that period due to illness. This benefit = more muscle. -without glutamine my strength in the gym is affected -my muscles are more volumized while on glutamine...a hydrated cell is a more anabolic cell -pumps in the gym come faster and remain longer while on glutamine This has all been documented carefully by me as I took alot of time working with this particular supplement. Nowadays everyone wants instant gratification b/c we have "supplements" like prohormones on the market (well, not for long) that add 5, 10, 15 lbs on some people, and thus this becomes the "standard" by which most other supplements are measured. If you are not seeing weight gains on the scale daily, guys will automatically think that a supplement is not working, and say "this stuff sucks!" This entirely misinformed attitude makes them abandon many very worthwhile and effective supplements...one being glutamine. Anyway, like someone said earlier, I will not debate this any longer. I KNOW what glutamine can and can't do, and although I appreciate all of the research done on glutamine...showing both positive and negative results...I will always rely first on the scientific/real world experiments that I perform personally over what I read on PubMed.
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Post by In-Human on Dec 2, 2004 9:32:07 GMT -5
Layne, In this world I take everything with a grain of salt, science, supp companies, I guess I am from the old school, just because someone printed it or sells it, it is not always true...
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Post by str8flexed on Dec 2, 2004 11:58:38 GMT -5
-recovery from workouts is quicker and more efficient...over time this = more muscle -immune system functions better...I did a test where I took no glutamine one year from October through March (which from experience is the period of time when I would get hit with the most colds, or flu, or any upper respiratory illnesses), and the result was that illness caused me to miss 12 of 96 scheduled workouts during that time. The following year I took 30 supplemental grams of glutamine peptides every day without fail during the same period, and I missed 1 scheduled workout during that period due to illness. This benefit = more muscle. -without glutamine my strength in the gym is affected -my muscles are more volumized while on glutamine...a hydrated cell is a more anabolic cell -pumps in the gym come faster and remain longer while on glutamine no offense, but how did you measure recovery? (don't say soreness) cellular hydration? the pump you experienced is due to the following glutamine side chain====> citrulline ======> arginine=====> nitric oxide which causes vasodilation and increases the pump. You'd be better off taking arginine to get this effect the immune system thing may or may not be true, the evidence is still pretty thin on both sides of line
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Post by bodyfx on Dec 2, 2004 13:17:55 GMT -5
Layne, not everything has to be "measured." Some have to be experienced.
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