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Post by bodyfx on Dec 21, 2004 17:36:58 GMT -5
Real world results are the bottom line. Absolutely!! While the placebo effect must be considered in some, and studies on both sides must be recognized, real world results that praises something on such a large scale cannot be ignored!
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Post by str8flexed on Dec 24, 2004 21:55:26 GMT -5
Really don't want to get into this again, but just so you know...I have tried exactly this before...used 40 g of glutamine per day and then dropped the glutamine in favor of 40 extra grams of protein and body comp and recovery were more favorable on straight glutamine. Believe me, I have tried to "debunk" the effects of glutamine myself on several occasions, but each time, glutamine has proved itself to me. well I tried the same thing and had opposite results... i maintained more muscle w/out glutamine. i have tried to prove glutamine to myself... why wouldn't I want it to work. Hell if it did everything people claimed it did that would be great for me. But the fact is that it just doesn't. but you have made up your mind and I have made up mine I suppose... I just have more journals on my side
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Post by youngblood on Dec 25, 2004 11:02:15 GMT -5
I reiterate my earlier post.......
There is a balance between the world of scientific journals (that you, Layne, believe in) and the real world knowledge/practical use (that BodyFX believes in). Obviously, you shouldstrike a happy medium between these two. Personally, I don't care if all the studies I can wipe my butt with say something doesn't work or does work, if my body proves the exact opposite. Layne, your body goes with scientific journals. Bodyfx with real world experiance. This is the one time I think you should "find what works for you." No need to debate this thing tooth and nail and just keep bringing it up again to debate a dead horse.......
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Post by str8flexed on Dec 25, 2004 12:07:17 GMT -5
see, this is where you have me wrong... I absolutely DO believe in anecdotal evidence... but I trust very few people with it... most are biased or don't know how to properly structure their regimine to determine how well a certain product works. Additionally, there are many people who are so anti-science that I spend much of my time defending science so I come across as if I am only one-sided. This is simply not the case.
-Layne
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Post by bodyfx on Dec 27, 2004 11:13:19 GMT -5
well I tried the same thing and had opposite results... i maintained more muscle w/out glutamine. i have tried to prove glutamine to myself... why wouldn't I want it to work. Hell if it did everything people claimed it did that would be great for me. But the fact is that it just doesn't. but you have made up your mind and I have made up mine I suppose... I just have more journals on my side And I have more positive direct feedback from dozens upon dozens of clientele One quick question for you though Layne...I am easily able to admit, that glutamine does not work for everyone that tries it, but are YOU able to admit that it DOES work for some?
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Post by youngblood on Dec 27, 2004 15:04:34 GMT -5
but are YOU able to admit that it DOES work for some? :Rolling Laugh: :Rolling Laugh: :Rolling Laugh:
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Thinkbig
Novice Bodybuilder
Elite Member
Growing!!!
Posts: 133
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Post by Thinkbig on Dec 27, 2004 19:23:48 GMT -5
...all I know is when I take it in high doses I am not as sore as when I do not take it... That being said I generally take about 40-50 grams spread through-out the day and felt nothing @ the prescribed dose of 5-10 grams daily... I also weigh more than the average supplement consumer... So who knows.
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Post by Tim Wescott on Dec 27, 2004 21:56:31 GMT -5
;D
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Post by bodyfx on Dec 28, 2004 9:56:52 GMT -5
No it won't Tim!! There are very strong feelings regarding this supplement, and strong opposing views. But at least this isn't like other boards where people start cussing at eachother over an amino acid conversation!
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Post by Tim Wescott on Dec 28, 2004 10:00:44 GMT -5
I hear ya` Eric, and I do appreciate the intelligent debate,without the pointless arguements............that was part of my vision for the board,flame free discussion,but still fun!! Plus it gave me an excuse to use that stupid picture! ;D Carry on !!
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Post by bodyfx on Dec 28, 2004 12:41:03 GMT -5
I hear ya` Eric, and I do appreciate the intelligent debate,without the pointless arguements............that was part of my vision for the board,flame free discussion,but still fun!! Plus it gave me an excuse to use that stupid picture! ;D Carry on !! I'm glad you %$#king agree you mother f%ing a@$hole...LOL ;D
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Post by Tim Wescott on Dec 28, 2004 13:02:32 GMT -5
I'm glad you %$#king agree you mother f%ing a@$hole...LOL ;D Tell me how you really feel bro,don`t hold back next time!!! :Big Laugh:
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Post by hossjob on Dec 28, 2004 15:04:58 GMT -5
Yes, I know you go to the gym...and in case you didn't know, I have relentlessly defended you and your physique on several message boards where "Layne bashing" became customary. How did I measure my recovery time. Several ways... 1- Yes, one of the ways was though the lessening of DOMS that occurs with glutamine, and/or the time it takes to clear. 2- Have you ever heard of something called "perceived exertion?" Well, there is also something called "perceived recovery," which is where you rate how you feel based on a number of factors. My perceived recovery was always greater while on glutamine. 3- This is an interesting one...my resting heart rate upon awakening was 5-10 beats slower while on gluatmine, then while off. Most know that one of the signs of overtraining is a higher morning resting heart rate. I'll have to agree w/ bodyfx. I grew up with a father that smoked, was hospitalized with whooping cough, asthma, and upper respiratory infections multiple times. I have had breathign treatments on and off through my life and have been on asthma, and sinus/allergy medications almost my whole life. I get extremely ill at least 2-3 times/year. In college, there were 2 years I DID NOT take glutamine and I became so ill (the exact same period of time each year - last weeks of April to first few weeks of May). The 2 years I did take glutamine I also became sick, but a 4-6 week infection was a 1-2 week infection. To boot, my energy and vitality (The way I feel, teh way I perform my job and in the gym) is increased by an immeasurable amount when I take glutamine. You can put every single study you want up here Layne, I will NOT agree with you on this. I believe glutamine to be the BEST supplement I've EVER taken. I feel that strongly about it. It effects me a great deal and I can tell. Most of the people I work with feel the same way, now there are 1 or 2 that get NOTHING from it, but I think everyone should try it. I echo bodyfx to the T on this one (I don't think I ever DISAGREE w/ ya BUDDY )
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Post by bodyfx on Dec 28, 2004 15:53:31 GMT -5
I'll have to agree w/ bodyfx. I grew up with a father that smoked, was hospitalized with whooping cough, asthma, and upper respiratory infections multiple times. I have had breathign treatments on and off through my life and have been on asthma, and sinus/allergy medications almost my whole life. I get extremely ill at least 2-3 times/year. In college, there were 2 years I DID NOT take glutamine and I became so ill (the exact same period of time each year - last weeks of April to first few weeks of May). The 2 years I did take glutamine I also became sick, but a 4-6 week infection was a 1-2 week infection. To boot, my energy and vitality (The way I feel, teh way I perform my job and in the gym) is increased by an immeasurable amount when I take glutamine. You can put every single study you want up here Layne, I will NOT agree with you on this. I believe glutamine to be the BEST supplement I've EVER taken. I feel that strongly about it. It effects me a great deal and I can tell. Most of the people I work with feel the same way, now there are 1 or 2 that get NOTHING from it, but I think everyone should try it. I echo bodyfx to the T on this one (I don't think I ever DISAGREE w/ ya BUDDY ) Thanks as always for the support buddy, but I'm glad that your support is not just "blind" agreement, but based upon your own observation and personal experimentation...especially as a competitive athlete. I respect Layne's opinion on glutamine, as he tried it and got nothing from it, AND he has combined that with the fact that he has read many negative studies on gluatmine to corroborate his own experience. However, I would not respect his opinion if he feels it is a universal fact, and that anyone who receives real benefit from gluatmine is either ignorant, affected by the placebo effect, or is in a calorie deprived state (or some similar reasoning). Like I said earlier...I am perfectly willing to admit that not everyone gets measurable or significant benefit from glutamine supplementation, but am not sure he would admit the opposite.
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Post by str8flexed on Dec 29, 2004 10:23:28 GMT -5
And I have more positive direct feedback from dozens upon dozens of clientele One quick question for you though Layne...I am easily able to admit, that glutamine does not work for everyone that tries it, but are YOU able to admit that it DOES work for some? i admit that i believe most people who see honest results from it are seeing them b/c they are taking a large >20g dose and just the extra calories/nitrogen is helping them. but i think a corresponding amount of increased nitrogen intake from general protein intake would be just as helpful. If someone had some kind of problem with the glucose alanine cycle it may also be helpful but i've never heard of this if someone has an enterocyte wasting disease such as celiac's or crohn's it may help repair the damaged enterocytes and increase nutrient absorption during times of aggrevation. I never said it was totally useless, but people act like this stuff is going to blow them up... ridiculous.
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Post by str8flexed on Dec 29, 2004 10:29:31 GMT -5
and to be clear on that matter, if I could find a decent designed study showing oral glutamine supplementation to be beneficial to weight trained individuals (beneficial meaning retaining more lean body mass or increasing body mass) at a maintenance calorie level... then I would certainly rethink my position. But as of now, I know of not one such study that should benefits. So until I can see properly documented evidence to support anecdotal reports, I'll hold my position on it.
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Post by bodyfx on Dec 29, 2004 12:58:13 GMT -5
i admit that i believe most people who see honest results from it are seeing them b/c they are taking a large >20g dose and just the extra calories/nitrogen is helping them. but i think a corresponding amount of increased nitrogen intake from general protein intake would be just as helpful. If someone had some kind of problem with the glucose alanine cycle it may also be helpful but i've never heard of this if someone has an enterocyte wasting disease such as celiac's or crohn's it may help repair the damaged enterocytes and increase nutrient absorption during times of aggrevation. I never said it was totally useless, but people act like this stuff is going to blow them up... ridiculous. Yes, its as I thought...you would only say it could be useful under very specific conditions, but not for normal, healthy weight training individuals. And, I do not think that one person in this thread said anything about glutamine "blowing them up." Nobody has likened it to Dianabol as of yet, LOL.
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Post by bodyfx on Dec 29, 2004 13:00:45 GMT -5
and to be clear on that matter, if I could find a decent designed study showing oral glutamine supplementation to be beneficial to weight trained individuals (beneficial meaning retaining more lean body mass or increasing body mass) at a maintenance calorie level... then I would certainly rethink my position. But as of now, I know of not one such study that should benefits. So until I can see properly documented evidence to support anecdotal reports, I'll hold my position on it. Well, I have perfomed enough of my own well-designed studies with weight trained individuals to have this covered...but since they are not in a journal, they would not count to you. Ok, I think I've said enough in this thread. Final answer: use it for yourself and you decide!
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Post by hossjob on Dec 29, 2004 15:23:31 GMT -5
i admit that i believe most people who see honest results from it are seeing them b/c they are taking a large >20g dose and just the extra calories/nitrogen is helping them. but i think a corresponding amount of increased nitrogen intake from general protein intake would be just as helpful. If someone had some kind of problem with the glucose alanine cycle it may also be helpful but i've never heard of this if someone has an enterocyte wasting disease such as celiac's or crohn's it may help repair the damaged enterocytes and increase nutrient absorption during times of aggrevation. I never said it was totally useless, but people act like this stuff is going to blow them up... ridiculous. No OTC, legal supplement will BLOW anybody up (accept maybe CEX, right bodyfx )! Supplements are just that SUPPLEMENTS and I know you know this Layne, but I don't think anyone here is SAYING it's going to BLOW them up, just help/aid in many of the facets of bodybuilding that lead to more growth/repair, any growth/repair. I know being a young "LEGAL" bodybuilder I look for any EDGE I can get. I'm going up against guys using Clen, T3, Tren, etc..., if using glutamine is going to help me grow and store less fat, well then by golly I'm going to use it ;D In fact, I also reccomend it to most of my SERIOUS clients or people I work with and I'd say 70% SWEAR by it. I'm working with 4 guys right now that have had explosive gains by changing nothing in their regime/diet but adding glutamine. In fact one has surpassed EVERY lift he'd ever done, is leaner than ever, and HEAVIER than ever and all he did was supplement 40-50 grams of glutamine per day while actually DECREASING overall calories and protein consumption in order to get ready for a modeling gig! Talk about ANECTDOTAL evidence!
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Post by bodyfx on Dec 30, 2004 9:54:35 GMT -5
CEX is pretty damn good, huh!
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