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Post by youngblood on Apr 29, 2006 15:08:46 GMT -5
WOW! That is interesting... so you are saying you can gain muscle without ANY carbs? The only thing needed to gain muscle, well two things; protein and excess calories. Of course the latter will make you gain a bit of fat too, but that's okay since your gaining muscle too. Muscle contains nitrogen. Protein is the only thing we eat that also contains nitrogen, so that's the only source for it. Carbs and fat do not have the nitrogen molecule, and our bodies cannot convert carbs/fat into protein. Yet, the body IS able to strip protein of it's nitrogen molecule and make protein into either carbs or fat. As Rubicon mentioned, in Latin, the word protein means "of prime importance." It's essential to our existance (look at my above post for it's definition again). We CANNOT live without protein. All these vegetarians trying to make you think we don't need protein aren't educated enough, and are too much of tree lovers (I like plants too, just don't like eating them!). They also feel tofu is a superior source of protein, but that's a whole other story! So, you need protein, and you do NOT need carbs at all. But when dieting, or getting bigger, carbs make getting your calories much easier, for sure. Pound down a pound of steak, and it can be hard. Now, take the same amount of calories in, say, some healthy brown rice. You'll look like your eating more, it will fill you up more, but a few hours later your hungry again. Eat BOTH the steak and the rice so you are still having the same amount of calories, and it's a little easier to have more calories due to what Milos Sarcev calls the "Buffet effect." Your not eating just one type of food, and your taste buds like tasting something different. Similar to doing DB presses instead of BB presses. Your mind is satisfied more due to the variety. So carbs help out because they let you eat more while bulking, and they help you get more calories. But in NO WAY are they needed in any way shape or form. Vitamins and minerals are available in a good steak too, btw!
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Post by sapphire on Apr 29, 2006 15:32:27 GMT -5
Very interesting to me. Thanks guys for the info. ;D ;D
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Post by RUBICON19 on Apr 29, 2006 18:29:43 GMT -5
WOW! That is interesting... so you are saying you can gain muscle without ANY carbs? The only thing needed to gain muscle, well two things; protein and excess calories. Of course the latter will make you gain a bit of fat too, but that's okay since your gaining muscle too. Muscle contains nitrogen. Protein is the only thing we eat that also contains nitrogen, so that's the only source for it. Carbs and fat do not have the nitrogen molecule, and our bodies cannot convert carbs/fat into protein. Yet, the body IS able to strip protein of it's nitrogen molecule and make protein into either carbs or fat. As Rubicon mentioned, in Latin, the word protein means "of prime importance." It's essential to our existance (look at my above post for it's definition again). We CANNOT live without protein. All these vegetarians trying to make you think we don't need protein aren't educated enough, and are too much of tree lovers (I like plants too, just don't like eating them!). They also feel tofu is a superior source of protein, but that's a whole other story! So, you need protein, and you do NOT need carbs at all. But when dieting, or getting bigger, carbs make getting your calories much easier, for sure. Pound down a pound of steak, and it can be hard. Now, take the same amount of calories in, say, some healthy brown rice. You'll look like your eating more, it will fill you up more, but a few hours later your hungry again. Eat BOTH the steak and the rice so you are still having the same amount of calories, and it's a little easier to have more calories due to what Milos Sarcev calls the "Buffet effect." Your not eating just one type of food, and your taste buds like tasting something different. Similar to doing DB presses instead of BB presses. Your mind is satisfied more due to the variety. So carbs help out because they let you eat more while bulking, and they help you get more calories. But in NO WAY are they needed in any way shape or form. Vitamins and minerals are available in a good steak too, btw! Interestin take YB. I do agree, but I think carbs have a place in dieting. The increase in muscle glycogen is very important in my eyes.
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Post by youngblood on Apr 29, 2006 19:22:13 GMT -5
Once your talking about filling out for a show and all that, that's another subject. However, when it's about basic weight gain, or fat loss, then there is no need for carbs at all. If your after a look like a competitive BBer, then yes you do need carbs in order to fill out and such. But not for a simple housewife lookin' to drop a % or two of bodyfat.
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Post by RUBICON19 on Apr 29, 2006 19:31:13 GMT -5
Once your talking about filling out for a show and all that, that's another subject. However, when it's about basic weight gain, or fat loss, then there is no need for carbs at all. If your after a look like a competitive BBer, then yes you do need carbs in order to fill out and such. But not for a simple housewife lookin' to drop a % or two of bodyfat. Agreed!!
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Post by ntrllftr on Apr 29, 2006 22:11:26 GMT -5
WOW youngblood you got me sooooo confused? ? no not really just bustin on ya. dnuts- my 2 cents is this. about low carb food is egg whites, tuna, chicken breast, 80/20 or better beef. some people cycle low to high carb meals 4-5 days and some people make it 3 weeks before adding carbs for 1-3 days. the best thing is to experiment and find what works for you the best. Also I try to drink water and water only. as Youngblood said CONSISTENCY IS KEY with training and nutrition bottom line.
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dnutz
Novice Bodybuilder
Posts: 41
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Post by dnutz on Apr 30, 2006 1:05:01 GMT -5
WOW youngblood you got me sooooo confused? ? no not really just bustin on ya. dnuts- my 2 cents is this. about low carb food is egg whites, tuna, chicken breast, 80/20 or better beef. some people cycle low to high carb meals 4-5 days and some people make it 3 weeks before adding carbs for 1-3 days. the best thing is to experiment and find what works for you the best. Also I try to drink water and water only. as Youngblood said CONSISTENCY IS KEY with training and nutrition bottom line. Thanks for all the input, ya i eat eggs and meat by the lbs lol, but i was just wondering if any of u guys found like good tasting low carb cereal etc. Also, is JELLO ok to eat? It says it has zero carbs, but i just wanna make sure.
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Post by raider41 on May 2, 2006 7:27:31 GMT -5
YB, are you saying that going as low as you can on carbs, while keeping your diet high in proteinis the fastest way to true bodyfat loss. That is without significant losses in muscle mass Also you support Tim's method for cycling carbs, or do you advocate more of a ketogenic type diet, untill bodyfat levels are attained. What are your minimal amounts of protein, fat and carbs you think one should have thanks jeff
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Post by youngblood on May 2, 2006 14:45:37 GMT -5
Raider41-
Not saying go as low as you can on carbs. Where the Atkins diet falls short, is that it says you "MUST" take in no more than 30g of carbs, if you take in 31g, you'll be a fat whale forever. Not true. I usually eat around 80g when I'm a good boy and everything is one track. I'll go up to 120g or so and be okay, but if I approach my bodyweight I start holding more fat in my lower ab region. Cycling carbs is good, because your body is supposed to regenerate some key fat loss enzymes and such when you do load on the carbs, and you don't have the chance to "store the carbs as fat" because you won't oversaturate your body with an unneeded macro. Str8flexed could probably give you a more scientific explanation. But that's his field. I've read about many "diets" and tried all of them myself. Tried a majority of them on clients, and I know what is better for "most" people. I say most because I know some people using juice won't react as well, and there's the odd case of people that can consume enormus amounts of carbs (Jay Cutler, Milos Sarcev are two I know of) and not worry. I've gone periods of two months without any junk food. I wasn't starving myself, I wasn't trying to set a record or anything. I just didn't crave them. My diet (IMO) was so dialed in I didn't want anything but good food. As far as ratios, I'm not big on them. I'm not a doctor, I don't tell people "this is right, and if you don't do this, you'll never gain anything." I just tell people what I've found works, and not "just for me," but all across the board. But anyhoo, the ratios I'd give a very rough idea around here:
Make sure to get around 1.5g per lb of bodyweight (I actually much more since I hate vegetables, and love meat), it won't be hard since your lowering your carb intake. Carbs, no ratio given here, but try to keep it under 120g and you'll probably be fine. See if lowering it to around 80 helps you, if not, stay at 120. Or cycle between the two. Fat, I don't worry about, just make sure I'm not ingesting too much during the day. Plus, I find when eating so little carbs, you can take in large amounts of fat without trouble in the short term (fat gain, cardiac arrest!). But I still think a med intake or smaller amount is best. Just make sure your eating good. Remember the pyramid though, as long as that's in order and your burning the sufficient amount of calories, you'll be fine. The composition of food is least important, compared to how much, and what your doing!
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Post by sapphire on May 2, 2006 15:48:10 GMT -5
I am trying what Bodyfx suggested 130 grams on training days, 70 on non training days. I will see how that works, if I need to I will pop in a few NO CARB days!! 60 grams of carbs on training days will be PWO.
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Post by Intensity on May 2, 2006 15:55:27 GMT -5
Very good discussion. … and now, here comes the carbohydrates lover, Mr. Mo ;D Seriously, i do use the low carb approch to get rid of fat before a contest, but not at the extremme! So as youngblood suggested, i'll never have a daily average (over a week) of less than 80g of carb… even in the last weeks of the contest prep. I would rather increse the level of activity or reduce the total amount of cals. The brain need those minimum cals to stay healty. So i would advocate very high protein, moderate carbs and very low fat. For exemple, my maintenance diet at 205lbs looks like 345g of proteins, 225g of carbs and 35g of essential fats. Why am i a carbs fan? For the physical performances: With carbs as primary source of energy i'm always able to push lot harder, so i can build more muscles and burn more cals in the gym! So it keeps the metabolism faster! For the mental performances: I feel better mentaly, my pump is better and i'm fuller on a moderate carbs diet than a moderate fat diet! As far as the G.I. index goes… i thing that it is important to look at it (That's why i'll NEVER cut the post workout simple carbs)! After the workout, simple carbs will help the fast absorbtion of the protein, will help to replenish the glycogene (that will help our nest performance…and keep the metabolism faster…etc as mention above). And during the rest of the day, eating complex carbs would be a better choice in my opinion: Eating 60g of oatmeal carbs will keep your energy level higher and more stable than eating 60g of simple sugar carbs! I also believe that those 60g of simple sugar could be store as fat if you dont use them in the next hour… versus maybe 3-4 hours for the 60g of oatmeal. And if you say, "yea but after 1 hour, you'll use fat as energy instead of carbs if you take the simple sugar option" i would tell you back that i think that it doesnt work that way… once again, the metabolism will become a lot slower after adding the fat and not having any carbs as energy for the next hours… Sorry if english grammar was defficient… i tried to do my best, but when it comes to technical explanations it's a lot more difficult for me
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Post by sapphire on May 2, 2006 16:02:04 GMT -5
Hmm interesting. But I have to do what Bodyfx tells me to do, I can only speak for myself but I gained zero muscle until I started creatine and eating PWO rice cakes. I will have to see how it goes, if this method is not working I will ask Bodyfx what needs to change. THANKS for your advice though!
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Post by Tim Wescott on May 2, 2006 16:25:05 GMT -5
One thing I have found to be true in my case,I am a lot more "carb sensitive" now that I`m older.
In other words,too many carbs have an adverse effect on my body...........not the case when I was younger and could eat a ton of junk and still stay ripped.
I read a lot of forums, and I see people talking about ingesting 300-400,or 500-800 grams of carbs per day, and even 1000 grams per day as a carb up for a contest................I cringe at these amounts, because in most cases, they are waaaay too much for the body to process efficiently.
How in hell does one get in 700-1000 grams of carbs per day..............what are they eating to acheive this?
Insane amount,and too much IMO,for any ones body to process properly.
There is no one size fits all diet plan.............you have to experiment like YB says he did, to find out what`s best for you,and this will more than likely change over time.
I keep protein high,carbs low to moderate, and in the past,I would avoid fats like the plague, but now I eat more good fats on low carb days, in an effort to keep calories up,depending on my goal(s),and I really like it much better.
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Post by sapphire on May 2, 2006 19:09:33 GMT -5
I was thinking about this the whole time I was working out... AND I am going to ask BFX if 60 grams is too much PWO. If he says yes, I will cut it down and eat a serving of oatmeal during the day instead. I am emailing him right now!! ;D
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Post by youngblood on May 2, 2006 20:18:15 GMT -5
Why am i a carbs fan? For the physical performances: With carbs as primary source of energy i'm always able to push lot harder, so i can build more muscles and burn more cals in the gym! So it keeps the metabolism faster! For the mental performances: I feel better mentaly, my pump is better and i'm fuller on a moderate carbs diet than a moderate fat diet! Well, I'm 110% sure than if you were to fully adapt to burning fat as fuel, not skip back and forth or cycle your carb days (in amounts higher than we've talked about), you would have much BETTER endurance, and go even more "balls to the wall" because your fat sources are virtually unlimited. Maybe up it a TAD come contest time, when you need just another bit of kick, because your BF% is so low. For the mental performance, of feeling a pump? Well, I'll agree with you on that one. But that's about the best thing carbs will do, other than taste so damn good- for you IMO. Again, keep in mind, all my advices ( ;D ) are for natural bbers. If someone is taking an exogenous aid for some type of help, then that may or may not throw everything out of whack. But that's an area I'm certainly not experianced in. Oh yeah, Tim, being able to be young, ripped and eat carbs...... that does not include the bottle of booze to make you ripped does it? ;D I suppose even then, you were on a low carb diet and just didn't know it! Thanks to the fellows that came up with "net carbs." On that side note, can you believe all the people out drinking in clubs, thinking they aren't going to be overweight with the extras drinks they have, because they're having "non-impact carbs" found in Bacardi? #aseeingstars5gt# #bcrazylaugh4ua# #bfallinganvil1er#
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Post by Intensity on May 3, 2006 10:24:31 GMT -5
Well, I'm 110% sure than if you were to fully adapt to burning fat as fuel, not skip back and forth or cycle your carb days (in amounts higher than we've talked about), you would have much BETTER endurance, and go even more "balls to the wall" because your fat sources are virtually unlimited. Maybe up it a TAD come contest time, when you need just another bit of kick, because your BF% is so low. ------- I did a lot of low carbs diets du to my past contest preps, and i can tell you that even if my body fully adapt after a couple of weeks (months) i would not choose the bodyfat as fuel approach instead of the glycogene (carbs) AND bodyfat as fuel approach if performance is the objective! But as we previously said, no one react the same! I can also add that changing the method from time to time (training and diet) is also something very productive in my opinion! Again, keep in mind, all my advices ( ) are for natural bbers. If someone is taking an exogenous aid for some type of help, then that may or may not throw everything out of whack. But that's an area I'm certainly not experianced in. ------ Same thing here… only know about natural atheles. (If i can have the pretention to say that i know something )
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Post by sapphire on May 3, 2006 13:52:21 GMT -5
Spoke to bodyfx.. this was MY question and his response regarding my PWO carb intake....
Regarding PWO carbs, I usually have been eating 60 grams of rice cakes PWO, is this too much? My total for the day is 130-135 on those day including those carbs. Would I be better off eating another serving of oatmeal during the day and cutting the PWO carbs in half?
NOPE, YOU ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING! PWO CARBS ARE ABSORBED BETTER THAN ANY OTHER TIME OF DAY. THEY GO RIGHT TO THE MUSCLE CELLS AND SHY AWAY FROM FAT CELLS. MEAL 1 AND PWO CARBS ARE THE TWO SAFEST CARB MEALS OF ALL.
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Post by Intensity on May 3, 2006 13:57:36 GMT -5
Spoke to bodyfx.. this was MY question and his response regarding my PWO carb intake.... Regarding PWO carbs, I usually have been eating 60 grams of rice cakes PWO, is this too much? My total for the day is 130-135 on those day including those carbs. Would I be better off eating another serving of oatmeal during the day and cutting the PWO carbs in half? NOPE, YOU ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING! PWO CARBS ARE ABSORBED BETTER THAN ANY OTHER TIME OF DAY. THEY GO RIGHT TO THE MUSCLE CELLS AND SHY AWAY FROM FAT CELLS. MEAL 1 AND PWO CARBS ARE THE TWO SAFEST CARB MEALS OF ALL. I agree 100%
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Post by Tim Wescott on May 3, 2006 14:06:58 GMT -5
You can learn a lot from that bodyfx guy!! LOL ;D
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Post by sapphire on May 3, 2006 15:30:54 GMT -5
;D
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